According to Salguero,

At the end of the voicemail, Incognito is chuckling and in a pleasant voice says "OK call me back" ...... and guess what, he did! Then they proceeded to joke in the locker room about it after Martin played it for them.

These two sat on the team plane together. They were seen together a lot. They were on a carriage ride together in New Orleans where they took pictures with fans.

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Gee wiz, this gets better and better.

Could be a case of a guy feeling bullied and trying to fit in to get the bully off his back.

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Could be a case of a guy feeling bullied and trying to fit in to get the bully off his back.


Maybe, but I doubt it. Bully, social justice, everyone wins a trophy, fair, be sensitive...uggghhh.

So what would be your explanation of him laughing it off with his teammates and being buddy buddy with Incognito and then turning around and doing this?

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He has a social disorder.

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Don't give up. Don't ever give up." - Jim Valvano

Notice I used the word "feeling" bullied, meaning his perception of the situation may be different from the reality.

I'll also point to the psych evaluations done to Martin as part of the rookie process. He graded very highly as being a stable person.

I think he simply wasn't used to the environment he came into and he perceived it as bullying and this is the end result.

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This. The traits are all there from having read the new details that have poured out.

This guy is trying to protect his money right now because no locker room is going to want him.

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So what would be your explanation of him laughing it off with his teammates and being buddy buddy with Incognito and then turning around and doing this?


I don't know. He can't take it and he snapped? A mental disability? He's a sissy?

That doesn't go counter to my point that he FELT bullied, though. Remember, I am not saying he WAS bullied, but that he FELT bullied.

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I thought you were theorizing?

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He doesn't have the desire to play in the NFL. He struggles with a disorder of some type. He saved the voice message as his golden ticket for a rainy day. Add the immense pressure being put on this under achieving o-line and the recent move back to RT and he snapped and used his golden ticket to exit an uncomfortable situation.

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Except that he wants to resume his playing career.

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Of course he's going to say that. If he says he's quitting, he doesn't get his money Rich. You have to realize the financial ramifications of what is going on right now. There's a lot on the line.

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Again, I thought it was just a theory. Sounds like you believe it is the reason.

And I don't think it is a plausible theory because from a legal perspective he has all the financial leverage here.

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Everyone on this site is theorizing. As are you (when you're not playing both sides of the fence and contradicting everyone just for the sake of doing so).

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This is exactly what he's supposed to do if he's building a lawsuit. The last time I saw someone acting like this it was a co-worker trying to create a case against our manager. She would bring a little notepad to work and record any incident that could be incriminating that day. In the meantime she acted completely normal, while hoping that eventually she would have enough to sue our company and get herself a pay day so she wouldn't have to work again. I knew our manager well, & while nobody's perfect, he certainly didn't deserve to deal with such a set back from such a weak and selfish person.

I think Martin doesn't way to work & he sees this as his way out. But if there is no lawsuit filed in the next year or so then my theorys way off

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Hyperbole, but if it makes you feel better.



First of all, I'm not doing anything for the sake of doing it. I am a firm believer in objectivity and facts and there is very little of it going on in regards to this story.

Second of all, I am not playing any side of any fence. I don't have anything to gain from having an opinion one way or the other. I'm discussing a topic and I do like to bring in differen sides of the argument because I'm not narrow-minded.

Again, if you are so bothered by my perceived motives for posting what I post, ignore me.

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He's a Stanford guy, his parents, grandparents and great-grandparents are Harvard grads. So there is plausibility with the legal angle.

However, the root cause may still be a perception that he was bullied.

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Maybe part of him does. Maybe that is part of the disorder and internal struggle he is going through. Other players have stated that he said multiple times ",maybe I am not cut out for this". I know I have not always reacted the way I should when I feel backed into a corner or overwhelmed.

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You actually do make a very good point Rich but where I struggle with is it him that has the perception that he's getting 'bullied' or could it be that his parents have that perception and are really pushing him in that direction?..

My stance is that I think he's getting a lot of outside influence and the people around him are doing everything possible to protect him financially

I think there is a strong possibility of what you just said.

Cris Carter also said it is common for NFL players who come into the league and don't have the immediate success that is expected of them or that they had in college to wonder if they are cut out for the NFL.

This is not unique to Jonathan Martin and may not even be unique to someone who has a disorder.

It may be a case where the stress of the situation created the "disorder".

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Another plausible scenario. Again, look at his background. His parents are from the Ivy League. I hate to stereotype but there is a different mindset at that level.

You're probably not going to have the dad who grew up rough telling his son to be tough and don't let anyone push him around (see Incognito). You're going to have the protective parents that want to coddle their son and make sure he gets what he is "entitled" to because of his stature and education.

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I agree with that 100% Rich.

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Maybe the cause was the perception of bullying but in my opinion the real problem began when it wasn't handled correctly. When taking into account the way so many other players talked about Incognito, & that no other person has come out to side with Martin, it points to one man pushing himself an abnormal response.

Background or no, if Martin had a real issue then confronting Incognito right away more often cuts a problem off & this is a non-story. Now however, we have an interpretation of a voice mail & several other events later that appear to be issues that Richie didn't think there was any problem with. So he continues to go to business as usual as Martin's teammate

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If you do a root cause analysis, it leads straight to the top. The coaches asking Richie Incognito to toughen Martin up. Coaches should coach, they should address issues directly with the players, not find someone else to do it, especially someone with past issues like Incognito.



Or it could be a matter of winning a popularity contest. Incognito was a jokester, a clown, a locker room leader, a tough guy, an enforcer, the first guy to back you up on the field if the other team started trouble. In football, guys respect that and they tend to like that sort of personality. Martin was quieter, kept to himself more, Murtha described him as a little standoffish, in other words, not as much one of the guys as Incognito.

Additionally, Incognito is the better player, solid left guard with a Pro Bowl on his resume. Martin is an inconsistent player who has a ways to go to develop into a solid offensive lineman.

If the team wants to win, they may easily side with wanting the better player on the field.

Just because the teammates like Incognito more or would rather have the better player on the field (these are hypotheticals, although I think it is clear they do like Incognito more) doesn't mean Martin is in the wrong. Judgment shouldn't be passed on who won the popularity contest.



Yes, or it may have ended up worse, with a physical altercation. Who knows...

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Now this for me is such a tough pill to swallow because I don't think its wrong that Richie, as a veteran, would be asked to take on this role. However, as a coach you should get to know your guys well before playing this game because it can work. Most guys (saying that loosely) would acknowledge that they're being made into a little brother role & respond accordingly. I'm certain there are hundreds of examples where a player had to earn the respect he deserved on the team.

On a side note I actually like what Ireland's advice to Martin's agent was on a personal level, ya know between buddies, but as a General Manager . . . thats just bad business. So I agree this goes to the top. & I'll say further more, the coaches & FO are more unprofessional then people realize at this point because they asked Incognito do something for them & they are now letting him burn for it! I actually feel bad for Richie in that aspect because he thought he was doing the right thing



I don't care if it is a popularity contest. Martin is the loser however you draw it up. He walked. He didn't fight. & in this business the most popular players are the fighters. You can be standoffish as much as you want, as long as you perform on Sundays you have no reason to doubt your pride. Especially when the jokester/clown comes knocking.

Who would want Martin now? Is there a player out there saying "Jonathan is a guy I would like to play with by my side" ? Heeeeck No! Cuz when the opponent gets tougher, does anyone think Martin will grit it out? Not a chance. Maybe he needs to be more like the majority if he really thinks he wants to play again.



I gotta say it would be kinda awesome to hear that Martin man-handled Incognito in this scenario. Ha Ha Wouldn't it?
But when you say physical altercation immediately everyone is thinking worst case, & you know why? Its because nobody would give Martin a chance in that fight, despite being of similar size hes just not as tough as Richie. & maybe thats an entirely different lawsuit but Martin would still be showing his true colors. Wouldn't he?
But you know what? I've lost fights before. & its not the worst thing in the world finding out that you're human but you can still get another chance to prove yourself tomorrow.

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