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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:53 am 
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Brian Hartline has been diagnosed with a torn PCL in his left knee. It's not as bad as it sounds. Hartline won't need surgery and is fully expected to be ready for 2014 training camp after a rehab period. In fact, we'd be surprised if he wasn't ready even sooner as a PCL tear isn't nearly as severe as ACL tear. Hartline, who signed a $30.7 million contract a year ago, wrapped the season with a 76/1016/4 line. He now has a total of six touchdowns in his last 48 games.


http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5191/brian-hartline

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:39 pm 
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He now has a total of six touchdowns in his last 48 games

Yes! 1 every 8 games or 2 a season!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Makchell wrote:
Yes! 1 every 8 games or 2 a season!
Hence why I have maintained since Miami resigned him that his production is not worth the cost. I will not waiver until the man starts making more plays.

6 Million per worth of production. Anyone who thinks Hartline is worth that type cash for that type production deserves 8-8.

IMO Mathews can put up that type production for a far cheap cost. Plus he does not fall down when the DB looks at him.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:45 pm 
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I dont think Hartlines salary is what holds this team back... They could have kept Fasano and Bush, still did everything they did, and had cap space all year..

This team is poorly managed, and by being poorly managed they had to over pay to keep guys like Hartline because someones ego wouldn't let them keep others.. If the rumor was true that Philbin wanted Marshall gone in order to come here, then Hartlines inflated contract is his fault, because we were weak at the position...

Also Hartlines contract is not as simple as he makes 6 mil a year either.. He got 8 last season, 7 of which was a bonus and did not count against the cap, and is now owed 4.5 in gar money.

So whatever was done, is done and now the question is do you keep him for another year at 4.5?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:59 pm 
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Hartline having not that many touchdowns isn't because he doesnt make plays its because thats what happens in miami. Look at Marshall and Welker.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:02 pm 
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Working for guys like Dan Henning and Mike Sherman, no wonder TDs are few and far between.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:06 pm 
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What's the excuse of Harline's pisspoor YAC? OL? Coaching?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:11 pm 
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Makchell wrote:
What's the excuse of Harline's pisspoor YAC? OL? Coaching?


C'mon Mak .... it's a well known fact around here that coaching solves everything. :haha

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Manhattan wrote:
Hartline having not that many touchdowns isn't because he doesnt make plays its because thats what happens in miami. Look at Marshall and Welker.

Marshall dropped something like 7 TDs in his last yr in Miami. Welker only spent one yr in Miami as anytype of Wr.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:21 pm 
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10acjed wrote:
I dont think Hartlines salary is what holds this team back... They could have kept Fasano and Bush, still did everything they did, and had cap space all year..

This team is poorly managed, and by being poorly managed they had to over pay to keep guys like Hartline because someones ego wouldn't let them keep others.. If the rumor was true that Philbin wanted Marshall gone in order to come here, then Hartlines inflated contract is his fault, because we were weak at the position...

Also Hartlines contract is not as simple as he makes 6 mil a year either.. He got 8 last season, 7 of which was a bonus and did not count against the cap, and is now owed 4.5 in gar money.

So whatever was done, is done and now the question is do you keep him for another year at 4.5?

What do you mean did not count against the cap?

Agree this team is poorly managed. Not saying Hartline contract is what held this team back. Its tying up good money in avg players that is holding this team back.

Ireland should have had to sense to say "We can replace his production with equal talent for far less money. Kinda WAR in baseball. I said it prior to Miami being interested in Brandon Gibson, that he could replace Hartlines production at a cheaper cost.

Year Base - S. Bonus Misc. Cap Hit-------Dead
2013 715,000 1,400,000 - - 2,115,000 -12,500,000
2014 4,785,000 1,400,000 25,000 6,210,000 -10,385,000
2015 5,900,000 1,400,000 50,000 7,350,000 -
2016 6,100,000 1,400,000 50,000 7,550,000 -
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:30 pm 
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If you are unhappy with a player, why only blame the player? Why not also blame the manager that signs or resigns that player to a big contract?

And what about coaching? 8-8 is the best this team can do? You don't think a better coach could have got more out of this team? If you think that, then why dont we just keep everything as is? We will just blame it all on Hartline and Wallace. Lets trade them both for low picks like we did with Brandon Marshall. I'm sure this staff will do better with the next roster.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:06 pm 
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rodneyfaile wrote:
If you are unhappy with a player, why only blame the player? Why not also blame the manager that signs or resigns that player to a big contract?

And what about coaching? 8-8 is the best this team can do? You don't think a better coach could have got more out of this team? If you think that, then why dont we just keep everything as is? We will just blame it all on Hartline and Wallace. Lets trade them both for low picks like we did with Brandon Marshall. I'm sure this staff will do better with the next roster.

Hope you are not expecting me to have a different opinion. Hated the signing of Hartline at the cost. I like Hartline. I just do not like him at the cost. Think he has great hands & is a solid NFL WR. He is just not worth that type coin.. Believe would be a great No. 3 Wr.

Also Hated the trading of Marshall.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:30 pm 
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Dphins4me wrote:
rodneyfaile wrote:
If you are unhappy with a player, why only blame the player? Why not also blame the manager that signs or resigns that player to a big contract?

And what about coaching? 8-8 is the best this team can do? You don't think a better coach could have got more out of this team? If you think that, then why dont we just keep everything as is? We will just blame it all on Hartline and Wallace. Lets trade them both for low picks like we did with Brandon Marshall. I'm sure this staff will do better with the next roster.

Hope you are not expecting me to have a different opinion. Hated the signing of Hartline at the cost. I like Hartline. I just do not like him at the cost. Think he has great hands & is a solid NFL WR. He is just not worth that type coin.. Believe would be a great No. 3 Wr.

Also Hated the trading of Marshall.


I was referring to Rock's "coaching solves everything" sarcasm. lol

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:44 pm 
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rodneyfaile wrote:
If you are unhappy with a player, why only blame the player? Why not also blame the manager that signs or resigns that player to a big contract?

And what about coaching? 8-8 is the best this team can do? You don't think a better coach could have got more out of this team? If you think that, then why dont we just keep everything as is? We will just blame it all on Hartline and Wallace. Lets trade them both for low picks like we did with Brandon Marshall. I'm sure this staff will do better with the next roster.


In the context of YAC and Brian Hartline, coaching is not going to change who he is as a player. He's not a physical receiver. He's very light in the pants and easy to tackle.

As for the rest of it, I think you severely over-rate the talent level on the roster as is. How was Andy Reid and Jim Harbaugh going to mask the deficiencies of that O-line? Nobody can ever give me a straight answer when it comes to something like that, just the simple blanket statement "Well look at what so and so did over in such and such."

I'm sorry but this team is a mixture of mediocre talent and poor coaching.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:03 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
In the context of YAC and Brian Hartline, coaching is not going to change who he is as a player. He's not a physical receiver. He's very light in the pants and easy to tackle.


I wouldn't expect coaching to change who a player is. I am not even commenting on the merits of Hartline's attributes. I'm just saying, if you are unhappy with a player, how can you not put some blame on the people who evaluated him and decided he was worthy of a big resigning? If the players deserve ridicule, the person who put them on the roster does as well.

Rock Sexton wrote:
As for the rest of it, I think you severely over-rate the talent level on the roster as is. How was Andy Reid and Jim Harbaugh going to mask the deficiencies of that O-line? Nobody can ever give me a straight answer when it comes to something like that, just the simple blanket statement "Well look at what so and so did over in such and such."


I don't think that highly of the talent level on this team. They are severely lacking in several areas, especially OL. I wouldn't expect adding Reid or Harbaugh would instantly solve everything. I do however believe the talent level of this team is better than 8-8, and that another coaching staff could have achieved a better record.

What was the difference in KC this year? Doesn't a large portion of credit rightfully belong to Reid?

I don't think anyone said coaching would solve everything. That is a strawman argument of your creation.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:11 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
How was Andy Reid and Jim Harbaugh going to mask the deficiencies of that O-line?


Probably start by telling the GM that the talent level sucked and they needed replacements rather than stubbornly assuming that their system would be a cure all.

Maybe have a moving pocket for a mobile QB?

Stop calling for obvious screen passes to Wallace when the line isn't fast enough to move into position to block?

Advocate to sign a capable fullback so that they can run in short yardage situations?

I think the overall talent is a little better than you give them credit for. They are just being asked to do things they are not built for, like an OL that is not good at zone blocking or 43 setup for guys who thrived in a 34.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:31 pm 
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jammer wrote:
Probably start by telling the GM that the talent level sucked and they needed replacements rather than stubbornly assuming that their system would be a cure all.


That contradicts the basis of the argument. It was about what would they do with the guys on the roster.

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Maybe have a moving pocket for a mobile QB?

Stop calling for obvious screen passes to Wallace when the line isn't fast enough to move into position to block?

Advocate to sign a capable fullback so that they can run in short yardage situations?

I think the overall talent is a little better than you give them credit for. They are just being asked to do things they are not built for, like an OL that is not good at zone blocking or 43 setup for guys who thrived in a 34.


They're a mixture of old, slow, and unathletic outside of Pouncey. So zone blocking isn't the only thing they can't really do. Anything involving heavy movement and getting out to the second level isn't reliable with them.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:36 pm 
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rodneyfaile wrote:
What was the difference in KC this year? Doesn't a large portion of credit rightfully belong to Reid?

I don't think anyone said coaching would solve everything. That is a strawman argument of your creation.


To the contrary there have been posts implicating strictly the staff.

The difference in KC this year is they already had talent on the roster. They had a No.1 receiver, one of the game's most explosive RB's, and a defense that was loaded. I mean how many guys did they send to the Pro Bowl last year? The biggest difference was made when they signed a bonafied NFL starter in Alex Smith. You really think Andy Reid would be coaching into the playoffs with the QB carousel they had going last year?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:45 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
rodneyfaile wrote:
What was the difference in KC this year? Doesn't a large portion of credit rightfully belong to Reid?

I don't think anyone said coaching would solve everything. That is a strawman argument of your creation.


To the contrary there have been posts implicating strictly the staff.

The difference in KC this year is they already had talent on the roster. They had a No.1 receiver, one of the game's most explosive RB's, and a defense that was loaded. I mean how many guys did they send to the Pro Bowl last year? The biggest difference was made when they signed a bonafied NFL starter in Alex Smith. You really think Andy Reid would be coaching into the playoffs with the QB carousel they had going last year?


So, if they already had this talent on the roster, why were they 2-14 last year? Adding Alex Smith was worth 9 more wins? Reid didn't do anything? Shouldn't Romeo Crennel have been able to win more than 2 games?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:27 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
The biggest difference was made when they signed a bonafied NFL starter in Alex Smith.
Until 2012 Smith was considered to a huge bust. The difference a couple of yrs make & quality coaching from Harbaugh. Oh wait.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:34 pm 
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rodneyfaile wrote:
So, if they already had this talent on the roster, why were they 2-14 last year? Adding Alex Smith was worth 9 more wins? Reid didn't do anything? Shouldn't Romeo Crennel have been able to win more than 2 games?


No, because Romeo Crennel was a lousy head coach and that team flat out quit. It was a lame duck season for not only Crennel, but Pioli as well.

Again, the talent level was there ..... Berry, Hali, Johnson, Charles, Bowe, Flowers, Houston. I'm sure Sutton's scheme was far better for their defensive nucleus and it helps that Dontari Powe blossomed into a monster his second year. You combine that with stability at the game's most important position (QB) and improvement was inevitable.

Having said that, their 2013 cupcake schedule was not so dissimilar to our 2008 schedule. They've lost to the Chargers and Broncos twice each. Their biggest win came in Week 3 against the Eagles, who clearly are not the same team now.

So let's be careful before we start singing the praises of Andy Reid "Quick Fixer".

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Dphins4me wrote:
Until 2012 Smith was considered to a huge bust. The difference a couple of yrs make & quality coaching from Harbaugh. Oh wait.


Can't mold chickensh*t into chicken salad. There still has to be talent on the roster and that's precisely what Harbaugh inherited.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:39 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
rodneyfaile wrote:
So, if they already had this talent on the roster, why were they 2-14 last year? Adding Alex Smith was worth 9 more wins? Reid didn't do anything? Shouldn't Romeo Crennel have been able to win more than 2 games?


No, because Romeo Crennel was a lousy head coach and that team flat out quit. It was a lame duck season for not only Crennel, but Pioli as well.

Again, the talent level was there ..... Berry, Hali, Johnson, Charles, Bowe, Flowers, Houston. I'm sure Sutton's scheme was far better for their defensive nucleus and it helps that Dontari Powe blossomed into a monster his second year. You combine that with stability at the game's most important position (QB) and improvement was inevitable.

Having said that, their 2013 cupcake schedule was not so dissimilar to our 2008 schedule. They've lost to the Chargers and Broncos twice each. Their biggest win came in Week 3 against the Eagles, who clearly are not the same team now.

So let's be careful before we start singing the praises of Andy Reid "Quick Fixer".


So what does a coach do in your mind? What's a good coach worth? Who currently do you consider to be a great coach? Do you believe coaches turn teams around at all?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:42 pm 
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rodneyfaile wrote:
So what does a coach do in your mind? What's a good coach worth? Who currently do you consider to be a great coach? Do you believe coaches turn teams around at all?


None of that matters until we get a competent GM to do the grocery shopping.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:44 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
rodneyfaile wrote:
So what does a coach do in your mind? What's a good coach worth? Who currently do you consider to be a great coach? Do you believe coaches turn teams around at all?


None of that matters until we get a competent GM to do the grocery shopping.


I'm just curious what value you assign to coaches. Why not answer the questions?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:47 pm 
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If we fire Philbin, that means a majority of the plays Tannehill knows are gonna be thrown out the window, so making him learn more plays again next year is only going to hurt the beginning of the season. Obviously with a new OC there are going to be new plays, but a new head coach and oc are going to be completely different plays.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:48 pm 
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rodneyfaile wrote:
I'm just curious what value you assign to coaches. Why not answer the questions?


You clearly need a capable head coach. Do I really have to answer the obvious? There's only so much a quality head coach can do without the necessary ingredients on the roster.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:51 pm 
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DanRambo wrote:
If we fire Philbin, that means a majority of the plays Tannehill knows are gonna be thrown out the window, so making him learn more plays again next year is only going to hurt the beginning of the season. Obviously with a new OC there are going to be new plays, but a new head coach and oc are going to be completely different plays.


This is the crutch this organization signed up for when they ported Shermahill over to Miami.

The situation is an interesting one because it kind've suggests that whatever success Tanny did have was strictly from familiarity. He never went through the labors of trying to learn a brand new offensive philosophy.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:54 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
rodneyfaile wrote:
I'm just curious what value you assign to coaches. Why not answer the questions?


You clearly need a capable head coach. Do I really have to answer the obvious? There's only so much a quality head coach can do without the necessary ingredients on the roster.


Well then, why detract from someone wishing for better coaching for the Dolphins by trivializing coaching with your comment?



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C'mon Mak .... it's a well known fact around here that coaching solves everything. :haha

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:59 pm 
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rodneyfaile wrote:
Well then, why detract from someone wishing for better coaching for the Dolphins by trivializing coaching with your comment?


I'm not trivializing better coaching. I personally want better coaching. I was on board with Philbin to start with, but have totally soured on him.

I'm trivializing the idea that all it takes is <INSERT POPULAR HEAD COACH>. Not buying it. There are significant holes on this roster that not even they could've masked.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:10 pm 
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I think all anyone was saying is this team, even with holes, could have done better than 8-8 with better coaching.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:15 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:

Can't mold chickensh*t into chicken salad. There still has to be talent on the roster and that's precisely what Harbaugh inherited.
Who was saying that prior to his arrival? Who was saying Alex Smith was a NFL talent, but was not just getting the coaching? No one. That is who.

Yes, talent is needed. Talent without proper coaching goes no where. Quality coaching can raise lesser players to higher level.

Just like a OL. Its not about what team has the most talent. Its about what coach can mesh 5 men into a cohesive unit working together towards a goal.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:56 am 
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rodneyfaile wrote:
Rock Sexton wrote:
rodneyfaile wrote:
So what does a coach do in your mind? What's a good coach worth? Who currently do you consider to be a great coach? Do you believe coaches turn teams around at all?


None of that matters until we get a competent GM to do the grocery shopping.


I'm just curious what value you assign to coaches. Why not answer the questions?


Coaching is HUGE in the NFL. It's even more important than the quarterback. Coaching is why New England is excellent every year. Coaching turned a rag tag eagle team into a division winner with the #2 overall offense. Coaching turned Arizona into an excellent team this year.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:40 am 
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Dphins4me wrote:
What do you mean did not count against the cap?

Agree this team is poorly managed. Not saying Hartline contract is what held this team back. Its tying up good money in avg players that is holding this team back.

Ireland should have had to sense to say "We can replace his production with equal talent for far less money. Kinda WAR in baseball. I said it prior to Miami being interested in Brandon Gibson, that he could replace Hartlines production at a cheaper cost.

Year Base - S. Bonus Misc. Cap Hit-------Dead
2013 715,000 1,400,000 - - 2,115,000 -12,500,000
2014 4,785,000 1,400,000 25,000 6,210,000 -10,385,000
2015 5,900,000 1,400,000 50,000 7,350,000 -
2016 6,100,000 1,400,000 50,000 7,550,000 -
2017 6,100,000 1,400,000 50,000 7,550,000 -


2.1 mil is not a big hit for our leading WR IMO. And forgive me for not having faith that some unknown churned from the bottom of the roster was going to put up 1k this year in Hartlines absence...

Right now he is owed 4.7 mil, question is are the Dolphins taking that total hit, or just the leftover after he is let go and signs elsewhere?
Im not real familiar at how that part works. I just know he got most of his gar money already, and is owed around 4.5 in gar money... Based on the structure I figured he was a 2 year deal, and the way his money comes he did as well..

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:41 am 
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I think Rock is saying that coaching isn't the end all like some believe. Sure, coaching could have gotten another win or two and this staff does suck, but we need better players. As far as RT learning a new playbook, he can do it, it's not like this one was difficult. Curl, slant, WR screen, and go route.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:26 am 
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10acjed wrote:
Dphins4me wrote:

Year Base - S. Bonus Misc. Cap Hit-------Dead
2013 715,000 1,400,000 - - 2,115,000 -12,500,000
2014 4,785,000 1,400,000 25,000 6,210,000 -10,385,000
2015 5,900,000 1,400,000 50,000 7,350,000 -
2016 6,100,000 1,400,000 50,000 7,550,000 -
2017 6,100,000 1,400,000 50,000 7,550,000 -


2.1 mil is not a big hit for our leading WR IMO. And forgive me for not having faith that some unknown churned from the bottom of the roster was going to put up 1k this year in Hartlines absence...

Right now he is owed 4.7 mil, question is are the Dolphins taking that total hit, or just the leftover after he is let go and signs elsewhere?
Im not real familiar at how that part works. I just know he got most of his gar money already, and is owed around 4.5 in gar money... Based on the structure I figured he was a 2 year deal, and the way his money comes he did as well..

Hartline will count 6.2 ( 4.7 base/1.4 signing bonus ) mil towards the 2014 cap. to much IMO for his production, but Miami is stuck with him for at least next yr. If his production does not increase next yr then I do not see Miami taking over a 7 mil hit. It will save them money by cutting him.

Knowing who can step up is vital in the NFL. Cannot over pay for avg talent. & knowing what talent is worth. Its why the Steelers did not try to retain Wallace. They knew he would get far more than he is worth. They backed off & replaced him with Brown ( who they drafted in Rd. 6 ) who has far out performed him.

One of Miami biggest issues over the yrs is being afraid of young players and how they might perform.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:29 am 
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I like Hartline but his salary is way too high.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:46 am 
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Makchell wrote:
I think Rock is saying that coaching isn't the end all like some believe. Sure, coaching could have gotten another win or two and this staff does suck, but we need better players. As far as RT learning a new playbook, he can do it, it's not like this one was difficult. Curl, slant, WR screen, and go route.

Coaching is vital. However, not having the horses is vital also. Brian Billick said he was a whole lot smarter when he had Cunningham, Moss & Carter playing for him. Remember his O in Minn & his O in Balt. Did he become ignorant when he moved out of Minn?

Good coaching can raise avg talent to a higher level. Bad coaching can bring down top talent also.

They work together. I'd rather have a top coach knowing how to put his players in the best position to succeeded over a lesser coach not being able to us his talent. ( See Wanny )


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:57 am 
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Makchell wrote:
He now has a total of six touchdowns in his last 48 games

Yes! 1 every 8 games or 2 a season!


He'd have 2 a game if Manning was throwing to him.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:12 am 
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the steelers? they finished 8-8

look our defense has plenty of talent on it....two franchise tackles and a very good former 1st round tackle and couldn't stop the run up the middle...they use to stop the run???


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