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 Manziel 
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Post Manziel
Now that Jaws and Phil Simms are knock on Johnny Football, I think there is a very good chance he slips in the draft. While the Dream was to see Manziel play football in his state of Texas with Houston, Im starting to sense they are going to go in a different direction (unless they are inviting the PR circus of the angle already mentioned)

They are saying he has medium strength arm strength...... he is careless with the football..... He doesn't go through his progressions..... He has a bad habit (and a good talent) of escaping the pocket at random and extending plays (kinda like the Michael Vick of old, but not as fast)....

Jaws is saying he wouldnt draft him in the first 3 rounds. People are saying that their isnt a franchise QB in this draft. People are talking, thats all I am saying....

So I raise a question for debate....

If Johnny Football slips to say the late second round..... Miami? Maybe?

Matt Moore is a great backup.... Philbin is talking him up and could be trade bait for the right team..... and hes getting a little expensive for a backup. If Miami does trade in the back up QB sale ticket..... we'd be selling High (Philly selling AJ Feeley for a 2nd.... ), If this does happen, does Devlin become the back up, or do we draft a QB.

If we draft a QB, why not Johnny Football....

Just wondering how the Tannehill-Manziel dynamic would work. Could be kinda cool to have 2 young prominent slingers from A&M....

So lets make this a pleasant thread with all the bad news and bad feelings about the Dolphins lately..... If Johnny Football is available in the 2nd or 3rd round... should Miami snatch him up?


Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:08 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
SkyHigh314 wrote:
Jaws is saying he wouldnt draft him in the first 3 rounds.


He also said that he only reviewed 5 of Johnny's games in total, and that his full evaluation on him was till incomplete. Johnny is going in the 1st round.

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So lets make this a pleasant thread with all the bad news and bad feelings about the Dolphins lately..... If Johnny Football is available in the 2nd or 3rd round... should Miami snatch him up?


Definitely agree with you on that one lol.

:yay:

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Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:10 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
SkyHigh314 wrote:
Now that Jaws and Phil Simms are knock on Johnny Football, I think there is a very good chance he slips in the draft.


:hithead:


Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:48 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
Not many share Jaworski's opinion.

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Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:05 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
Grab him at #19 if he is there. The kid has the "it" factor and he is a playmaker. Hell, trade up, what diff does it make. He can sit on the bench like last year's #1....#2 overall.


Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:38 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
I doubt he drops out of round one....... But if he does... I think he'd be worth a trade up for. Good potential QB situation for the next decade


Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:51 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
I'm sure GM's around the league are scurrying to rework the draft boards in lieu of this report


:haha

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Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:54 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
10acjed wrote:
I'm sure GM's around the league are scurrying to rework the draft boards in lieu of this report


:haha


:)

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Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:07 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
We are just wishful thinking, relax.


Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:37 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
This is a case of a weak QB class driving up the value of guys like Manziel. I don't see the consistent arm strength necessary to make all the throws at the next level. His deep ball is inconsistent, maybe it's a Texas A&M thing. He doesn't consistently throw a tight spiral which means he has problems with his mechanics, possibly problems that cannot be corrected (see Brady Quinn). His decision making inside the pocket is questionable and at his size, relying on his legs too much at the next level could be dangerous.

Sorry, not sold on Johnny Football...

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Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:44 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
Rich wrote:
His deep ball is inconsistent, maybe it's a Texas A&M thing.


Simply not true. Manziel has had the best percentage of passes 25 yards + in the NCAA the past several years outside of RG III.

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Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:57 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
Manziel has bust written all over him. I wouldn't take him even if he was available in the 7th round. My gut tells me he's going to have a Brady Quinn moment in New York until somebody like the Browns trades up in front of the Texans to get him at the end of the 1st round.


Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:27 am
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Post Re: Manziel
I wouldnt take him in round 1. His highlights are full of floaters that are just thrown into a a crowd and Evans bailed him out so many times. I've been a Bridgewater fan all year, still say he's the best of this class. And I think Bortles could be a decent quarterback. Garappallo might have a nice NFL career too.


Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:29 am
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Post Re: Manziel
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ESPN's Ron Jaworski says Texas A&M QB Johnny Manziel "won't last three games" in the NFL playing the way he did in college.
"He’s a random quarterback who likes to get out of the pocket and make plays with his legs," Jaws said. "In the NFL, he won’t last three games playing that style. He’ll get hurt. He took a lot of vicious hits at A&M in the last two years." This comes after Jaws said he wouldn't take Manziel "in the first three rounds" of May's draft. ESPN's QB guru says Manziel has developed such a habit of leaving the pocket that NFL teams may not be able to coach it out of him. Jaws also cited inconsistent mechanics. Manziel's still going to be an early first-rounder.


Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:41 am
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Post Re: Manziel
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NFL.com's Daniel Jeremiah believes that Fresno State QB Derek Carr is the Browns guy at No.26.
"Their guy is (Fresno State quarterback) Derek Carr and they're going to take a different player with the fourth pick and they want to take Derek Carr with their second one (at No. 26)...I heard that from several different places," Jeremiah said while appearing on the Dan Patrick Show. Carr has been mentioned as a possible top 10 pick, but he lacks balance while throwing and could aggravate fans in the same way that Jay Cutler and Matthew Stafford do.


Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:08 am
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Post Re: Manziel
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Sorry, not sold on Johnny Football...



Me either Rich. I live in Texas and around tons of Aggie fans. A lot of (no offense intended) narrow minded thinking on this kid. Granted he was very exciting for their fans to watch, but how many former heisman winners TORE it up in college, but their style of play floundered in the NFL.....that is how I view Manziel.


Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:36 am
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Post Re: Manziel
AFCMiamiEast wrote:
Rich wrote:
His deep ball is inconsistent, maybe it's a Texas A&M thing.


Simply not true. Manziel has had the best percentage of passes 25 yards + in the NCAA the past several years outside of RG III.


You can look at a stat sheet, I'm looking at game film. I see a lot of overthrows and a lot of wobbly passes when he throws it longer than 10 yards.

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Post Re: Manziel
Personally, I am NOT a fan of Johnny Football, I would say pass in a heart beat.

The reason I brought the whole topic up was out of curiosity.

Im wondering if there is any context of the Tannehill/Manziel relationship. I mean T-Hill left and Manziel was a freshman the following year so I am not looking for teammate info. But they had to have some contact during recruiting visits, and such. Im just curious how they got along, and how if it would beneficial to have both of them on the team.

I think Lazor is gonna be a great OC, and will probably get the best out of Tannehill. Maybe thats just hopeful thinking. But if a situation like Manziel dropping ala Brady Quinn into the mid second round... is it worth drafting a Manziel to be Tannehill's backup..... coach him up a bit, and trade him along in 2-3 years......Im not sure.

Again, Im probably more curious about this dynamic since they are BOTH A&M guys.... Im looking at Manziel like a new generation Tebow. Not because they are the same player, but because they were both young heismans with alot of PR buzz around them, but not much Pro substance to equate. If Manziel was brought in solely to be a backup, I think it would be a humbling experience for him, and also could help him out alot..... That being said, if her were to backup his predecessor at college, that could be a pretty cool scenario.

So on those lines... I want to know if anyone can dig up any information on the A&M brotherhood here, if i can call it that.


Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:11 am
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Post Re: Manziel
I'd rather take a guy like Aaron Murray in the later rounds and see if he can bounce back from his injury.

Not a fan of Manziel at all really. Don't like his attitude or his style of play, and personally think it's just another Tebow like circus coming to town, just a better player behind it.


Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:20 am
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Post Re: Manziel
Rich wrote:
AFCMiamiEast wrote:
Rich wrote:
His deep ball is inconsistent, maybe it's a Texas A&M thing.


Simply not true. Manziel has had the best percentage of passes 25 yards + in the NCAA the past several years outside of RG III.


You can look at a stat sheet, I'm looking at game film. I see a lot of overthrows and a lot of wobbly passes when he throws it longer than 10 yards.


Numbers never lie. His deep ball is obviously consistent enough to warrant that great of a stat. A player whose deep ball is "inconsistent", wouldn't be the 2nd leader of that exact same area of the game throughout a span of a decade.

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Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:53 am
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Post Re: Manziel
AFCMiamiEast wrote:
Numbers never lie. His deep ball is obviously consistent enough to warrant that great of a stat. A player whose deep ball is "inconsistent", wouldn't be the 2nd leader of that exact same area of the game throughout a span of a decade.


Dear Fail,

First of all, you haven't backed up this stat and I am not seeing it posted anywhere. So there's that.

Second of all, numbers never lie is a lie.

Stats can be very misleading. For example, you can have a defensive back with no interceptions for the season and conclude that the guy gets no picks, therefore he sucks.

Or maybe it's because QBs don't challenge him because his coverage is so good.

A lot of people were calling Jason Taylor a bust in his third season because he only managed two sacks in 15 games. But he got a lot of pressures and was double teamed a lot and well... we know he wasn't a bust. So there's that.

Ronnie Brown ran an incredible 40 time at the combine. That was a stat. Did that top end speed ever materialize on the field? No.

As for having the best percentage of passes 25+ or more... maybe he threw one pass of 25+ and completed it.

Now he's at 100% completion.

Or maybe all his deep passes went to his 6'5 go to guy who was able to make incredible catches on inaccurate throws.

Or maybe he completed a higher percentage of deep balls against weak defenses.

You've provided no back up or context for this claim.

Game film has more context than mentioning a percentage with no source, reference or data that makes up the percentage.

But keep thinking a couple of numbers on a page tell the whole story.

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Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:42 am
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Post Re: Manziel
Rich wrote:
Dear Fail,

Second of all, numbers never lie is a lie.

Stats can be very misleading. For example, you can have a defensive back with no interceptions for the season and conclude that the guy gets no picks, therefore he sucks.


So if a stat number shows that Manziel completed 45% of his deep balls of 25 + yards, it's a lie? The number simply is not true? Hard to argue with that logic.

Second, you are comparing two completely different sides of the games stat wise. That just simply does not work. Comparing a DBs' stat sheet to a QB? No. We might as well compare LeBron James' stats to Jason Collins. Maybe we can find an argument in there somewhere that supports Collins as being a better player in certain areas of the game than the King is.

When a player has been leading the NCAA over a span of several years in deep ball consistency (and this is on a per snap basis, so his sample size is big enough to conclude that inconsistent is not quite the right term to describe his deep ball game with), it's safe to say that isn't a weakness of his. BTW, I heard it on ESPN First Take yesterday so you can look up the source yourself. =-)

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Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:50 am
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Post Re: Manziel
Glad to see the banter has seeped into another thread, you two should get a room
:ann0y:
As far as Johnny Football and his "talent"

If 31 other teams let him slip to round 2 or three, heed the warning IMO... We can let Moore go try and get a starting gig, cut back the cap space and sign a vet to sit behind RT.

I am watchin the Johnny football hype tho.. And have to say I enjoyed many of his college games. Kid has some instinct and ability to make plays.
Quote:
Downfield success
Manziel completed 48 percent of his passes thrown 25 yards or longer this season, up nine percentage points from last season and in the top 10 among AQ quarterbacks.

Manziel had at least one such completion in every game he started this season.

In terms of comparisons to recent draft picks, among first-round picks in 2011 and 2012, only Robert Griffin III had a higher completion percentage on passes of 25 yards or longer than Manziel in his final year of college. Griffin’s was a hair better -- 52 percent.


So at least 13 passes thrown and at least 6 completions is the base, I can not find the actual stats tho of how many were thrown, catch-able etc...

As far as I am concerned, you cant take a guy with that sort of hype and sit him on the bench on a team like the Dolphins, specially not going into this season where 7 wins would be impressive.

I would much rather see our new OC take the mike sherman training wheels off RT and let him use his legs.

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Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:08 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
10acjed wrote:

In terms of comparisons to recent draft picks, among first-round picks in 2011 and 2012, only Robert Griffin III had a higher completion percentage on passes of 25 yards or longer than Manziel in his final year of college. Griffin’s was a hair better -- 52 percent.


As far as I am concerned, you cant take a guy with that sort of hype and sit him on the bench on a team like the Dolphins, specially not going into this season where 7 wins would be impressive.[/quote]

I got the stat skewed a bit, but thanks for putting more perspective into it AC. I heard it on First Take a day or two ago, so his deep ball is amongst the recent "elite" college QBs of the past couple seasons. And 7-9 would be really disappointing for me, no doubt that would give this coaching staff a clean sweep (possibly sparing Lazor).

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Post Re: Manziel
Deep ball accuracy on broken plays is far different in college than the NFL. Manziel has the benefit of scrambling around to allow his receiver to get so open from inferior coverage that he wouldn't have to always hit him in stride. Now compare that to Tannehill this past year. His passes made it to Wallace, but Wallace didn't have that cushion to stop his route, catch the ball and keep moving. NFL DBs are much better. Manziel isn't going to have that separation luxury in the NFL. I saw the RG III comparison...look at what happened when RG III was forced to stay in the pocket and how it affected his accuracy.

Some good comments I heard today: if you watch enough Manziel film you see he never has to step up into the pocket to make big throws. Most of it is very clean or from a scramble/broken play. Also, a lot of his scramble plays looked good on a highlight reel but in actuality were bad decisions on his part. He didn't make the throw that was available or didn't see it. This stuff will be hard to pull off in the NFL.


Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:55 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
Why can't you put a second round draft rookie on the bench behind a top 10 drafted qb on his third season coming off of the highest yardage output by a Dolphins QB since the mid 90's?

Just curious here.... even if Miami were to draft Manziel.... itd be a rookie project in my eyes, and would be a solid, stable backup on a rookie wage scale that IF Tannehill were to go down, it would be like Cousins in DC.

I see nothing but Pro's in this situation, especially if we could be the team that grooms a QB and trades him away (Matt Cassel with NE, AJ Feeley in Philly, Matt Flynn in GB). Would be nice to get a capital invest translate into equity in a few seasons.

Manziel will definitely bring the circus to town ala Tebow.... but is anyone REALLY ready to bench Tannehill?!?!? I dont think anyone is calling for his head, and we know that he was handicapped by a lack of running game and a poor OL. I dont think there would be any pressure to push a rookie in over T-Hill unless Tannehill really craps the bed in the first month.

The question is, is Miami in a position to take the BAP in this draft, especially come the second round. And if the BAP is Manziel, do we pull the trigger..... or do we focus on beefing up the Lines which I expect through the first 4 rounds?

Hell, some one will take the flyer and grab this guy in the late 20's is what i project.... but if he does slip far enough down. I see a great scenario where Moore gets traded for a 3rd or 4th round pick to the Jets (lol).... and Manziel becomes Tannehills back-up, and with Lazor at the helm, we may have 2 good QB's develop out of Miami for the first time in decades!!

Philbin has been talking up Moore. He is one of the steadiest backup QBs in the league.... his stock is rising, and so is his salary. There are enough QB needy teams out there in a year in which their is no marquee QB prize in the draft class. Vick is one of the best options on the market. Moore for a 4th rounder, Manziel in the 2nd round, cap becomes alot friendlier for free agents.... i see positives.

I also see the cocky Manziel that showed up to a University of Texas Frat party for no apparent reason expected to be treated like a god... I really DO NOT like the kid at all, but the Miami Dolphins back up QB situation needs to be addressed either this year or next year. Having Matt Moore's 4 million salary is not a benefit to this team, but he is stable. Moore should not be expected to be on the team in 2015... so who fills that role? Address the issue this year and sell high on Moore, or wait til he walks out in 15 with no compensation and we end up with a back up QB has been like..... Mark Sanchez.

I guess what I am saying is... Will Miami be pre-emptive if the cards fall into place, or do they continue to be reactionary like Ireland was for so long, plugging "solutions" to problems a year after they are visible to the obvious fan base? I guess..... What kind of GM will Hickey be?


Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:55 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
GB drafted a 2nd round QB as insurance for their uncertainty with Aaron Rodgers in 2008. I think it is a good idea but I still wouldn't go for Manziel.

I personally like Carr, Garappolo, McCarron and Fales as guys you could potentially groom.


Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:07 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
AFCMiamiEast wrote:
BTW, I heard it on ESPN First Take yesterday so you can look up the source yourself. =-)


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I believe in self reliance.

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Post Re: Manziel
10acjed wrote:
in the top 10 among AQ quarterbacks.


Hmm... that's a far cry from second only to RGIII in the last few years....

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Post Re: Manziel
Quote:
TFY Draft Insider's Tony Pauline reports that seventeen coaches polled at the combine ranked Fresno State QB Derek Carr over Texas A & M QB Johnny Manziel.
"At last count at least 17 quarterback coaches polled at the combine rank Derek Carr over Johnny Manziel," Pauline wrote on Thursday. Our own Josh Norris has Johnny Manziel at No.27 and Derek Carr at No. 29, in his current rankings. Norris believes Manziel will be a top 10 pick, while Carr will most likely be the fourth QB off the board perhaps later in the first-round.


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Post Re: Manziel
Rich wrote:
This is a case of a weak QB class driving up the value of guys like Manziel. I don't see the consistent arm strength necessary to make all the throws at the next level. His deep ball is inconsistent, maybe it's a Texas A&M thing. He doesn't consistently throw a tight spiral which means he has problems with his mechanics, possibly problems that cannot be corrected (see Brady Quinn). His decision making inside the pocket is questionable and at his size, relying on his legs too much at the next level could be dangerous.

Sorry, not sold on Johnny Football...


Most of the reasons Russell Wilson slipped to the 3rd round too.


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Post Re: Manziel
NFLJunkie wrote:
Rich wrote:
This is a case of a weak QB class driving up the value of guys like Manziel. I don't see the consistent arm strength necessary to make all the throws at the next level. His deep ball is inconsistent, maybe it's a Texas A&M thing. He doesn't consistently throw a tight spiral which means he has problems with his mechanics, possibly problems that cannot be corrected (see Brady Quinn). His decision making inside the pocket is questionable and at his size, relying on his legs too much at the next level could be dangerous.

Sorry, not sold on Johnny Football...


Most of the reasons Russell Wilson slipped to the 3rd round too.


I recall most guys saying Wilson has every trait you want in a QB but his height is his problem. Never heard any knocks on his arm strength, decision making, IQ or maturity.

I specifically remember both Kiper and McShay saying if Wilson was a few inches taller he would be competing with Luck to be the first overall pick.


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Post Re: Manziel
I like Johnny Football, and I'd probably draft him overall #1 if I needed a QB. His game is lacking consistency in some areas, but he has the "it" factor.

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Post Re: Manziel
Jammer said it before.... I agree. I thoroughly prefer Carr over Manziel. I stayed up late on opening weekend to watch my Scarlet Knights get blown out of the water in overtime at 2 am in 100 degree desert california weather at kickoff by Carr. The Knights sucked this season, but darn did Carr look good that night, nearly unstoppable once the second half started..... i was drooling, even if he is David's little brother, still looked really impressive on Thursday late night football that evening.

Again, i resort back to the Tannehill/Manziel dynamic and think of the possibilities there. Got a feeling that would make for a tight, and interesting QB room if those two were together. THill rubbing the age, and seniority angle, and Manziel pushing the 'f u, im a heisman angle". Im intrigued by a good pairing of partners in that room if it were to happen though, and I guess since my thread is getting alot of action today, and my original point has been completely overlooked every single time. I'll give up and not push it any further.


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Post Re: Manziel
NFLJunkie wrote:
Rich wrote:
This is a case of a weak QB class driving up the value of guys like Manziel. I don't see the consistent arm strength necessary to make all the throws at the next level. His deep ball is inconsistent, maybe it's a Texas A&M thing. He doesn't consistently throw a tight spiral which means he has problems with his mechanics, possibly problems that cannot be corrected (see Brady Quinn). His decision making inside the pocket is questionable and at his size, relying on his legs too much at the next level could be dangerous.

Sorry, not sold on Johnny Football...


Most of the reasons Russell Wilson slipped to the 3rd round too.


Uh.. yeah... no. His arm strength and accuracy were never a question.

Only his height was.

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Post Re: Manziel
Rich wrote:
I'm not going to do your work for your. I believe in self reliance.


LOL, I don't consider bringing up a source (that I heard on TV) to an internet message board guy as "work". Again, you can find it yourself.

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Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:33 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
jammer wrote:
I specifically remember both Kiper and McShay saying if Wilson was a few inches taller he would be competing with Luck to be the first overall pick.


I heard Mel Kiper say that on ESPN today. Were they saying that prior to the 2012 draft as well? That's interesting.

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Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:36 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
AFCMiamiEast wrote:
jammer wrote:
I specifically remember both Kiper and McShay saying if Wilson was a few inches taller he would be competing with Luck to be the first overall pick.


I heard Mel Kiper say that on ESPN today. Were they saying that prior to the 2012 draft as well? That's interesting.


Yes, and he even mentioned Miami. It was a radio interview and he was saying that Wilson could be a steal for someone. He said we'd be talking Wilson 1st overall if he was 6'4 because he brought everything to the table that Luck did.

I remember him saying if Miami didn't want Tannehill they should consider Wilson in Rd 2.


Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:54 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
AFCMiamiEast wrote:
Rich wrote:
I'm not going to do your work for your. I believe in self reliance.


LOL, I don't consider bringing up a source (that I heard on TV) to an internet message board guy as "work". Again, you can find it yourself.


So... to sum up your response...

You got nothing.

This seems to be a recurring theme with you.

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Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:00 pm
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Post Re: Manziel
Quote:
Based on tape study, NFL Films' Greg Cosell believes Texas A&M QB Johnny Manziel faces long odds of success in the pros because his game is so reliant on "making plays outside of structure."
On tape, Cosell was taken aback by "how many balls (Manziel) does not throw to open receivers," and that he abandons the pocket even when he "does not need to." Opined Cosell, "I think it's very hard in the NFL to live on the edge when you don't need to. If you live on the edge too often, you will fall off the cliff, in my view, in the NFL." Cosell believes Manziel's tendency to move and/or abandon the pocket is not comparable to Russell Wilson's, who does it in a "structured" manner. "When it's third-and-six, and Russell Wilson sees he can run for eight yards and get a first down, he just runs for eight yards and gets out of bounds," Cosell explained. "There's a purpose to his movement. Now I'm interpreting Johnny Manziel on film, but quite frankly, when he moves I see a guy who moves, and then tries to figure it out. And I'm not sure that that works in the NFL."


Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:56 am
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