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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:30 pm 
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The Indianapolis Star reports free agent CB Vontae Davis is looking for a deal in excess of Brent Grimes' four-year, $32 million contract. It's not a surprise considering Davis is younger than Grimes and coming off an equally excellent year, grading out as a top-three corner by Pro Football Focus. The Colts remain interested in bringing Davis back, but he appears set to test the market and could very well command over $8 million annually. Davis is our No. 3 free agent corner remaining, behind only Aqib Talib and Alterraun Verner.


http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/ ... han-grimes

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:45 pm 
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yeah, this is a little misleading as he did allow eight touchdowns in 2013, and only two cornerbacks (Minnesota's Chris Cook and Cleveland's Buster Skrine) allowed more.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:56 pm 
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I agree with you Finhead, these grades are usually misleading. Every time I turned on a Colt game some receiver was abusing him.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:37 pm 
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And that is why he is not here and Grimes is...

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:22 pm 
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Finhead34 wrote:
yeah, this is a little misleading as he did allow eight touchdowns in 2013, and only two cornerbacks (Minnesota's Chris Cook and Cleveland's Buster Skrine) allowed more.


It's not misleading.

PFF's system looks at every single play. It could be that the touchdowns allowed were well covered and perfect throws. In these instances, PFF will still give the player a positive grade.

It's the same thing as when a QB throws an INT, but it was actually a well thrown pass tipped by his own receiver and then intercepted. PFF will not penalize the QB for the INT.

The 8 touchdowns allowed is actually the misleading stat.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:02 pm 
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It's funny that pro football focus graded him out as a top three corner yet they have him 22nd on their top 75 free agents (4th corner on that list) which would lead me to believe that even PFF finds their own rankings misleading..


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:34 am 
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Rich wrote:
Finhead34 wrote:
yeah, this is a little misleading as he did allow eight touchdowns in 2013, and only two cornerbacks (Minnesota's Chris Cook and Cleveland's Buster Skrine) allowed more.


It's not misleading.

PFF's system looks at every single play. It could be that the touchdowns allowed were well covered and perfect throws. In these instances, PFF will still give the player a positive grade.

It's the same thing as when a QB throws an INT, but it was actually a well thrown pass tipped by his own receiver and then intercepted. PFF will not penalize the QB for the INT.

The 8 touchdowns allowed is actually the misleading stat.


8 touchdowns were well covered? OK


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:35 am 
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paydurt wrote:
It's funny that pro football focus graded him out as a top three corner yet they have him 22nd on their top 75 free agents (4th corner on that list) which would lead me to believe that even PFF finds their own rankings misleading..


I don't have alot of faith in that site. Some here think it's the Holy Grail of the NFL. I'd rather trust my eyes.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:58 am 
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swerve13 wrote:
8 touchdowns were well covered? OK

Just because a TD is caught, does not mean the DB was not in a good position. Just as in baseball all home runs are not badly thrown pitches. Sometimes the other players just makes the better play.

I would have to view the plays to form my own opinion on his coverage.

I agree that PFF is not the holy grail of a players plays. I just cannot buy that they break down every player of every game unless they have that many employees doing it, which then leads to more than one opinion forming the sites opinion.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:13 am 
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Just because a TD is caught, does not mean the DB was not in a good position. Just as in baseball all home runs are not badly thrown pitches. Sometimes the other players just makes the better play.


You are absolutely right. Really I was merely stating that Davis may have a high ranking, but there are some other things to consider and I thought the stat that only two other starters were scored upon more than Davis was worth mentioning was all. He also only had ONE interception throughout the entire season, another stat to mention.

Davis is still a young physical corner and unless one of our young corners emerge, giving him up for a 2nd round pick when he could have been lined up opposite Grimes with Patterson in the nickel, probably would one of the NFL's best trios.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:25 am 
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Finhead34 wrote:
You are absolutely right. Really I was merely stating that Davis may have a high ranking, but there are some other things to consider and I thought the stat that only two other starters were scored upon more than Davis was worth mentioning was all. He also only had ONE interception throughout the entire season, another stat to mention.
One pick against 8 TDs is a bad stat IMO. I still like Davis & his ability, but it seems he is still not what his talent suggest it should be.


Finhead34 wrote:
Davis is still a young physical corner and unless one of our young corners emerge, giving him up for a 2nd round pick when he could have been lined up opposite Grimes with Patterson in the nickel, probably would one of the NFL's best trios.

Taylor needs to become a solid corner. I'm not against waiting a yr for a player, but it stinks that it was a traded pick of Davis. The top of Miami's 2013 draft were of players with current injuries and that is not a good draft for some help in that yr.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:27 am 
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I like Vontae Davis as he is a risk-taker and has good instincts. Still, giving up 8 TDs is a bit much. Character-wise, I'd rather have Grimes. VD is a good kid, but I think if he grew up a little more we would have seen better consistency from him in Miami. Last year was a contract year, so, we'll have to see if he can continue to produce as he did last year. He is loaded with talent.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:31 am 
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Why are we worried about what VD is asking for?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:32 am 
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Dphins4me wrote:
I agree that PFF is not the holy grail of a players plays. I just cannot buy that they break down every player of every game unless they have that many employees doing it, which then leads to more than one opinion forming the sites opinion.


Ya, I've grown to find it suspicious. Do people realize how many players and plays that amounts to? The time required is mind blowing.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:04 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
Why are we worried about what VD is asking for?

I was thinking the same. Guess its nice to knock ex Phins.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:42 pm 
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swerve13 wrote:
8 touchdowns were well covered? OK


Yes, that is EXACTLY what I said. :yay:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:42 pm 
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swerve13 wrote:
paydurt wrote:
It's funny that pro football focus graded him out as a top three corner yet they have him 22nd on their top 75 free agents (4th corner on that list) which would lead me to believe that even PFF finds their own rankings misleading..


I don't have alot of faith in that site. Some here think it's the Holy Grail of the NFL. I'd rather trust my eyes.


So you saw all 8 touchdown passes and all of his games?

If you can do it, PFF can.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:51 pm 
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To those questioning PFF, I recommend you take a step back and ask yourselves why you're questioning a methodology you know nothing about. Is it because you happen to have a bias for or against a player and PFF's analysis has gone contrary to your opinion?

Is PFF the Holy Grail? I don't even know what that means. But what they are doing is taking the analysis of the NFL game to the next level. What they do is revolutionary which is why even NFL teams, players, agents and sports writers use their services and their analysis.

The people that use their services, especially the NFL teams, are more in tune with what is happening in a game than we are. Surely they must find some validity to what PFF does in order to pay money for their consultative services.

Yes, they do watch every snap. And not only do they watch every snap and analyze every player on every snap, but the analysis is peer reviewed. So while there is certainly a human factor, two pairs of eyes are looking at the same thing.

Each analyst does one per game per week and they dedicate a lot of time to this. Not only that, the information we get from the Premium Stats services is only part of the equation. They have another layer of information and analysis that we do not see, only their analysts and their client see, and it is proprietary.

Short of having metrics and analysis from the best NFL teams, this is the best thing out there.

I dare you to find something better.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:15 pm 
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Rich wrote:
To those questioning PFF, I recommend you take a step back and ask yourselves why you're questioning a methodology you know nothing about. Is it because you happen to have a bias for or against a player and PFF's analysis has gone contrary to your opinion?

Is PFF the Holy Grail? I don't even know what that means. But what they are doing is taking the analysis of the NFL game to the next level. What they do is revolutionary which is why even NFL teams, players, agents and sports writers use their services and their analysis.

The people that use their services, especially the NFL teams, are more in tune with what is happening in a game than we are. Surely they must find some validity to what PFF does in order to pay money for their consultative services.

Yes, they do watch every snap. And not only do they watch every snap and analyze every player on every snap, but the analysis is peer reviewed. So while there is certainly a human factor, two pairs of eyes are looking at the same thing.

Each analyst does one per game per week and they dedicate a lot of time to this. Not only that, the information we get from the Premium Stats services is only part of the equation. They have another layer of information and analysis that we do not see, only their analysts and their client see, and it is proprietary.

Short of having metrics and analysis from the best NFL teams, this is the best thing out there.

I dare you to find something better.


Why all the hate for PFF Rich?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:18 pm 
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AFCMiamiEast wrote:
Why all the hate for PFF Rich?


Haters gonna hate.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:51 pm 
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AFCMiamiEast wrote:
Why all the hate for PFF Rich?


No hate. But that's the easiest thing to label it for people who want to instigate yet another forum quarrel on here by demeaning someone's reluctance to worship PFF's service.

A healthy degree of skepticism as to it's end-all-be all use as a resource is warranted. Consider how many active players there are in the league, the amount of snaps played per game, and the amount of time it takes to go thru each game and watch each individual player for each individual snap.

The man hours behind it are simply mind boggling, not to mention there are times when plays are open to interpretation.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:28 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
Consider how many active players there are in the league, the amount of snaps played per game, and the amount of time it takes to go thru each game and watch each individual player for each individual snap.

The man hours behind it are simply mind boggling, not to mention there are times when plays are open to interpretation.


At least 10 hours per week per analyst. But they do it.

Sure, unless they know the exact play there may be a degree of error, but that evens itself out over the 600-1000 snaps a player takes per season. Even if there are some plays graded inaccurately, they do not cause enough distortion to skew the overall grade.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:46 pm 
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I like the site myself, however take all stats with an open mind.

As far as VD, he has questionable work ethic, seems to have had his best year in a contract year, go figure. As far as his $ is concerned, he would get less in FA IMO, but Indy may pony up with an incentive or back loaded deal..

I would take Grimes over him 10 out of 10 times...

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:46 pm 
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Rich wrote:
swerve13 wrote:
8 touchdowns were well covered? OK


Yes, that is EXACTLY what I said. :yay:



talk about being blindly biased.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:49 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
AFCMiamiEast wrote:
Why all the hate for PFF Rich?


No hate. But that's the easiest thing to label it for people who want to instigate yet another forum quarrel on here by demeaning someone's reluctance to worship PFF's service.

A healthy degree of skepticism as to it's end-all-be all use as a resource is warranted. Consider how many active players there are in the league, the amount of snaps played per game, and the amount of time it takes to go thru each game and watch each individual player for each individual snap.

The man hours behind it are simply mind boggling, not to mention there are times when plays are open to interpretation.


100% agree


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:02 pm 
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Rich wrote:
At least 10 hours per week per analyst. But they do it.


Ya, but consider how many active/participating players there are in the league. How many analysts are there at PFF exactly?

I value their conrtibutions, but only to a certain point.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:04 pm 
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alot about football is open to interpretation

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In recent years, people in and outside of the NFL have tried to figure out which numbers/statistics are discoverable and relevant to a teamwork-oriented game like football. Over the last year, I've seen more and more people link to a website called Pro Football Focus. It's a website that claims (emphasis theirs): "For every game we analyze and grade every player on every play to provide you with the most in-depth statistics you can find anywhere outside the team's film room. "

The numbers they have are very detailed but beg the question: How can fans put together detailed numbers grading players based on game-charting from television angles (and not coaches' tape)? And how would you be able to ascribe blame for plays if you don't know what the play was designed and what the players were supposed to do? Their site looks at some of these questions in their grading section, and they are very good about responding to emailed questions.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:15 pm 
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not a very big staff

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Who are the Pro Football Focus focus people?

Stephanie Stradley: Who are the people from Pro Football Focus? What is their background and how did they get into doing this work?

Sam Monson: There's a team of seven full-time staff with other contributors helping with the various things as their time permits. None of us are, have been, or will ever pretend to be, scouts; we are simply dedicated fans with a deep passion for football who utilize the skills and disciplines we learned and use in our "other" jobs to produce the information you see on the site (and a whole raft of other data you don't). We see ourselves, first and foremost, as football information provision specialists (not journalists or media), and this is the premise on which our business model is based.

Stradley: How many people do you have charting games, and how long does it take to chart each game to get such detailed data?

Monson: During the season 95 percent of the information gathered is the work of four people working in the order of 70 hours each per week. Each game takes an average of 15 hours to fully analyze, grade, error check and put on the site.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:31 pm 
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swerve13 wrote:
talk about being blindly biased.


Talk about my response going way over your head....

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:34 pm 
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swerve13 wrote:
not a very big staff


7 full time and OTHER contributors...

How many OTHER contributors?

I can tell you for a fact that they have OTHER contributors gathering data and supplying to the primary analysts.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:35 pm 
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swerve13 wrote:
alot about football is open to interpretation

Quote:
In recent years, people in and outside of the NFL have tried to figure out which numbers/statistics are discoverable and relevant to a teamwork-oriented game like football. Over the last year, I've seen more and more people link to a website called Pro Football Focus. It's a website that claims (emphasis theirs): "For every game we analyze and grade every player on every play to provide you with the most in-depth statistics you can find anywhere outside the team's film room. "

The numbers they have are very detailed but beg the question: How can fans put together detailed numbers grading players based on game-charting from television angles (and not coaches' tape)? And how would you be able to ascribe blame for plays if you don't know what the play was designed and what the players were supposed to do? Their site looks at some of these questions in their grading section, and they are very good about responding to emailed questions.


Why do you never put links to the articles you quote?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:36 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
Rich wrote:
At least 10 hours per week per analyst. But they do it.


Ya, but consider how many active/participating players there are in the league. How many analysts are there at PFF exactly?

I value their conrtibutions, but only to a certain point.


They have 7 full time staff and multiple freelance data contributors.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:39 pm 
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http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/04/pro-f ... -together/

PFF Article


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:44 pm 
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Finhead34 wrote:
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/04/pro-football-focus-how-do-they-put-their-numbers-together/

PFF Article


So swerve's source in regards to staff size is an article from March 2010. :)

No wonder he didn't post the link.

I can tell you they are rapidly growing their staff and data contributors.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:04 pm 
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Rich wrote:
swerve13 wrote:
alot about football is open to interpretation

Quote:
In recent years, people in and outside of the NFL have tried to figure out which numbers/statistics are discoverable and relevant to a teamwork-oriented game like football. Over the last year, I've seen more and more people link to a website called Pro Football Focus. It's a website that claims (emphasis theirs): "For every game we analyze and grade every player on every play to provide you with the most in-depth statistics you can find anywhere outside the team's film room. "

The numbers they have are very detailed but beg the question: How can fans put together detailed numbers grading players based on game-charting from television angles (and not coaches' tape)? And how would you be able to ascribe blame for plays if you don't know what the play was designed and what the players were supposed to do? Their site looks at some of these questions in their grading section, and they are very good about responding to emailed questions.


Why do you never put links to the articles you quote?


Never? Exaggerate much?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:06 pm 
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Rich wrote:
Rock Sexton wrote:
Rich wrote:
At least 10 hours per week per analyst. But they do it.


Ya, but consider how many active/participating players there are in the league. How many analysts are there at PFF exactly?

I value their conrtibutions, but only to a certain point.


They have 7 full time staff and multiple freelance data contributors.


But they are fans Rich. They don't have any scouting qualifications.
Just fans like Bleacher report writers.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:07 pm 
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Rich wrote:
Finhead34 wrote:
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/04/pro-football-focus-how-do-they-put-their-numbers-together/

PFF Article


So swerve's source in regards to staff size is an article from March 2010. :)

No wonder he didn't post the link.

I can tell you they are rapidly growing their staff and data contributors.


yes because 2010 was decades ago. :fart:

maybe now they have twice as many casual fans working for them.. LOL


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:16 pm 
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Rich wrote:
They have 7 full time staff and multiple freelance data contributors.


Personally I find that even more mind boggling then. I was expecting to hear about a lot more than that given the amount of time it would take to scout a single game and every snap for every player who participated.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:47 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
No hate. But that's the easiest thing to label it for people who want to instigate yet another forum quarrel on here by demeaning someone's reluctance to worship PFF's service.


Huh? Lol, all of that must have went over your head. Nothing in that quote above remotely describes the meaning behind what I posted.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:54 pm 
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AFCMiamiEast wrote:
Rock Sexton wrote:
No hate. But that's the easiest thing to label it for people who want to instigate yet another forum quarrel on here by demeaning someone's reluctance to worship PFF's service.


Huh? Lol, all of that must have went over your head. Nothing in that quote above remotely describes the meaning behind what I posted.


You said "Why the hate for PFF" and Rock said it's not hate, but it's easy to say that we hate it because we don't agree with it.


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