All times are UTC-05:00


Phinfever Home Page

Phinfever Chatroom

Phinfever FAQ




Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:37 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Legend
Phinfever Legend

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:43 am
Posts: 2159
Is it time to start Shelby over Vernon, Shelby was a good back up last year, but still did play like a back up, this year he's been very strong. He is applying really good pressure, he's playing much better against the run and Vernon has been sketchy.

Shelby has been more noticeable than Vernon in spite of Vernon playing almost twice as many snaps, so maybe it's time to see what Shelby could do as the starter.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:41 am 
Offline
Phinfever Lead Moderator
Phinfever Lead Moderator

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:04 pm
Posts: 8989
Cut them both to save salary, D. Jordan will be coming back!!!


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:07 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am
Posts: 26284
Location: Miami, FL
Not so fast...

Yes, Shelby just had two sacks, but sacks can be misleading.

Yes, Shelby has half the snaps of Vernon, but both are equally effective against the run. However, Shelby's pass rush is not where it needs to be. Aside from the 2 sacks, he has 4 pressures for the season. Vernon has two sacks and 11 pressures. This despite the fact that Shelby has 79 pass rush snaps to Vernon's 130, so it is not double there.

Vernon is getting a sack or pressure on 10% of this pass rush snaps.

Shelby on 7%.

Also, Shelby lines up primarily as Wake's back up.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:24 am 
Offline
Phinfever Legend
Phinfever Legend

Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:47 am
Posts: 7869
It is nice to know that there is quality depth there. It is a long season but Vernon has earned his starting spot.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:34 am 
Offline
User avatar
VIP Donor!
VIP Donor!

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:43 pm
Posts: 5852
Location: Wellington, FL
They both benefit from lining up opposite of the BEST rusher in the NFL. I would have to guess if Jordan stays off the dope and plays up to half the hype he will be the starter by Dec....

Vernon earned the job so far IMO for passing downs.. Let Shelby come in on run plays..

_________________
Caution: Reply may contain sarcasm


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Legend
Phinfever Legend

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:43 am
Posts: 2159
10acjed wrote:
They both benefit from lining up opposite of the BEST rusher in the NFL. I would have to guess if Jordan stays off the dope and plays up to half the hype he will be the starter by Dec....

Vernon earned the job so far IMO for passing downs.. Let Shelby come in on run plays..


Actually, Shelby is Wake's main back up, so he usually doesn't benefit from his presence, but he does get used at DT on rushing downs as well.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Legend
Phinfever Legend

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:43 am
Posts: 2159
Rich wrote:
Not so fast...

Yes, Shelby just had two sacks, but sacks can be misleading.

Yes, Shelby has half the snaps of Vernon, but both are equally effective against the run. However, Shelby's pass rush is not where it needs to be. Aside from the 2 sacks, he has 4 pressures for the season. Vernon has two sacks and 11 pressures. This despite the fact that Shelby has 79 pass rush snaps to Vernon's 130, so it is not double there.

Vernon is getting a sack or pressure on 10% of this pass rush snaps.

Shelby on 7%.

Also, Shelby lines up primarily as Wake's back up.


I'm not basing this on the 2 sacks Rich, I'm basing it on his ability against opposing lineman, he gets more movement in both the run game and pass rush, and he seems like a verging playmaker.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:16 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Owner/Admin
Phinfever Owner/Admin

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:41 am
Posts: 15699
Location: Raleigh, NC
I believe Shelby is in the last year of his contract whereas Vernon has another year. Vernon is scheduled to make under $1 million next year, but if he continues to be an impact in both the run and the pass, he's going to want a big raise. I don't blame him either.

_________________
Follow me on Facebook - Phinfever - Miami Dolphins Fan Site @BigDavePhinfever

Follow me on Twitter - David Blake@phinfever


Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:28 am 
Offline
User avatar
VIP Donor!
VIP Donor!

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:43 pm
Posts: 5852
Location: Wellington, FL
Big Dave wrote:
I believe Shelby is in the last year of his contract whereas Vernon has another year. Vernon is scheduled to make under $1 million next year, but if he continues to be an impact in both the run and the pass, he's going to want a big raise. I don't blame him either.


He has another good year and he deserves it.... We all gripe about poor jobs done over the years of evaluating and developing talent.. Here is a 3rd round pick that has established himself by year 3.

In the end, Wake is aging and you can never have enough pass rushers. Keep them both, keep developing them behind a guy like Wake, and begin working Jordan into the rotation when he gets out of detox..

Wake hasnt looked to break the bank here. Vernon, a Miami native, graduated from American HS in Hialeah, went to the U, and is now a Dolphin. I am going to assume we can keep him here if wanted..

_________________
Caution: Reply may contain sarcasm


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:49 am 
Offline
User avatar
VIP Donor!
VIP Donor!

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 4:56 pm
Posts: 6865
Finster wrote:
Rich wrote:
Not so fast...

Yes, Shelby just had two sacks, but sacks can be misleading.

Yes, Shelby has half the snaps of Vernon, but both are equally effective against the run. However, Shelby's pass rush is not where it needs to be. Aside from the 2 sacks, he has 4 pressures for the season. Vernon has two sacks and 11 pressures. This despite the fact that Shelby has 79 pass rush snaps to Vernon's 130, so it is not double there.

Vernon is getting a sack or pressure on 10% of this pass rush snaps.

Shelby on 7%.

Also, Shelby lines up primarily as Wake's back up.


I'm not basing this on the 2 sacks Rich, I'm basing it on his ability against opposing lineman, he gets more movement in both the run game and pass rush, and he seems like a verging playmaker.


Not according to those numbers?


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:55 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Owner/Admin
Phinfever Owner/Admin

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:41 am
Posts: 15699
Location: Raleigh, NC
PFF ratings on 4-3 DE's in the NFL. Cam Wake #1.

Image

_________________
Follow me on Facebook - Phinfever - Miami Dolphins Fan Site @BigDavePhinfever

Follow me on Twitter - David Blake@phinfever


Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar
VIP Donor!
VIP Donor!

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 4:56 pm
Posts: 6865
#37 for #13... :whoops:


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Owner/Admin
Phinfever Owner/Admin

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:41 am
Posts: 15699
Location: Raleigh, NC
Kev1321 wrote:
#37 for #13... :whoops:


To be fair, Shelby had a much better day than Vernon against the Raiders. Vernon had an ineffective game.

_________________
Follow me on Facebook - Phinfever - Miami Dolphins Fan Site @BigDavePhinfever

Follow me on Twitter - David Blake@phinfever


Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Legend
Phinfever Legend

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:43 am
Posts: 2159
Kev1321 wrote:
#37 for #13... :whoops:


We all have our opinions Kev, but I don't put much stock in PFF, as big a Wake fan as I am he is not imo the #1 DE right now, nor do I think Vernon is 13.

My opinion is based on what I have observed, I could certainly be wrong but I do think Shelby has gotten much better movement against O lineman.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am
Posts: 26284
Location: Miami, FL
Finster wrote:
Kev1321 wrote:
#37 for #13... :whoops:


We all have our opinions Kev, but I don't put much stock in PFF, as big a Wake fan as I am he is not imo the #1 DE right now, nor do I think Vernon is 13.

My opinion is based on what I have observed, I could certainly be wrong but I do think Shelby has gotten much better movement against O lineman.


So if your opinion is based on what you have observed, does that mean you've observed every snap that every 4-3 defense end in the NFL has played this season?

If not, then what basis of comparison are you using to determine rankings?

If so, then when did you win the lottery to have so much free time? And why aren't you sending each of us a cut for putting up with you (joking joking...)?

By the way, Wake leads the NFL in pressures and total pressures (sacks and pressures combined). There's a reason he is #1 and it isn't because PFF makes stuff up...

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Legend
Phinfever Legend

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:43 am
Posts: 2159
Listen Rich, I know your Pffolic, but not everyone is, and to many of us it is just another form of opinion, to you I understand it's a matter of faith, but to many of us it's wrong so often it's not worth paying much attention to.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar
VIP Donor!
VIP Donor!

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 4:56 pm
Posts: 6865
Finster wrote:
Listen Rich, I know your Pffolic, but not everyone is, and to many of us it is just another form of opinion, to you I understand it's a matter of faith, but to many of us it's wrong so often it's not worth paying much attention to.


PFF opinion has nothing to do with what you said.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar
VIP Donor!
VIP Donor!

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:17 am
Posts: 6486
As an organization they are wrong so often that NFL teams pay to use their services.

They also have been widely quoted by sports writers giving them more than just opinion status imo.

I don't think they are perfect, but a good reliable source of info, yes.

I think any source of grading will have strengths and weaknesses. Their method seems to try and account, to some degree, for human error.

If they are good I would hope that they would continually try and tweak things and make changes to get better.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Legend
Phinfever Legend

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:43 am
Posts: 2159
Kev1321 wrote:
Finster wrote:
Listen Rich, I know your Pffolic, but not everyone is, and to many of us it is just another form of opinion, to you I understand it's a matter of faith, but to many of us it's wrong so often it's not worth paying much attention to.


PFF opinion has nothing to do with what you said.


Except for everyone citing PFF, my original comment did not have anything to do with PFF, all of my opinions are from watching the games, opinions mind you, but every subsequent comment was based on posters citing PFF.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Legend
Phinfever Legend

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:43 am
Posts: 2159
AQNOR wrote:
As an organization they are wrong so often that NFL teams pay to use their services.

They also have been widely quoted by sports writers giving them more than just opinion status imo.

I don't think they are perfect, but a good reliable source of info, yes.

I think any source of grading will have strengths and weaknesses. Their method seems to try and account, to some degree, for human error.

If they are good I would hope that they would continually try and tweak things and make changes to get better.


I don't agree with their grading system, I'm not alone, many football fans and experts do not put a lot of faith in their grading system their stats are good, which is what NFL teams sometimes do use, but the grading system has a lot of flaws.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar
VIP Donor!
VIP Donor!

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:17 am
Posts: 6486
I don't have access to pff's premium services and don't know what all they provide to people who subscribe. Maybe they offer something different to nfl teams. Maybe someone with more direct knowledge can speak to that.

Finster how do you know that nfl teams only use their stats and not their grading system? I have heard of a couple of coaches that are not fans but have not heard teams come out and make that statement.

I thought their grading system was one of the main things they offered.

I think the point may be that since their grading system is widely quoted by sports writers it might be safe to think that it has more weight than the opinion of an average fan.

I think they have said that it is not the end all be all of anything but it is a good place to start.

Quote:
...

I reached out to Sam Monson of PFF for a response.

"I understand Mike Zimmer’s reservations, but while coaches like to maintain the mystique of football, the bottom line is most plays are simple enough to decipher," Monson told me. "We won’t get everything 100 percent right, the same way the Vikings won’t get everything 100 percent right when watching tape of any other team in the league – it doesn’t mean they’re not right most of the time and it’s still not a worthwhile exercise.

"We would never want anybody taking our grades and stats as the definitive answer to any question. Football is way too complex for that. But they provide a fantastic starting point and can give you a big shortcut to answers you might be looking for. PFF currently sells to 13 teams and once we get to sit down with people within organizations they immediately recognize the value of the grading and what we do -- from coaches to the scouting department to the analytics guys. If Coach Zimmer wants to learn a little more about PFF and our processes, we’re always here."

...

However, I've never been very fond of any single-point grading system -- the game is too complex to draw it down to a number, no matter how may decimal points you put behind it. PFF always explains their grades, but I would love to see more words behind those specific numbers. Those numbers don't tell the whole story, and while the PFF guys will be the first ones to agree with this, it's still easy for some to mistake a shortcut for empirical evaluation.

I also agree completely with Monson. If you watch enough tape and learn from enough people in and out of the league who know more than you do, you can discern when a team hits a nickel defense, or blocks inside, or has certain coverage concepts in a general sense. You won't always know what those assignments are, but as many people have said over the years, perfect is the enemy of good.

If you wait until you have enough information and enough connections to get it right every time, you'll never get the bat off your shoulder often enough to get anything right one time. PFF does the best they can with the information they're given, and they do a pretty solid job, as do many other analysts, paid and unpaid, who don't work directly for the league. That may counter Zimmer's seeming insistence that those in the league know best, but that's the way it goes.

Zimmer may find that reaching out to Pro Football Focus, and perhaps even availing himself of their services, could help his own case down the road. One thing's for sure -- more and more teams are using all kinds of information from all kinds of different sources, and the teams who hang back will eventually be a bit behind the curve.


http://www.si.com/nfl/2014/08/25/mike-z ... ball-focus

Quote:
...

“To be honest with you, I don’t spend a lot of time looking at their numbers,” Dolphins defensive coordinator Kevin Coyle said. “I don’t know where they can have statistics and quantify these statistics without really knowing what the calls are or what a guy’s responsibility is.”

Grimes pointed out one example: Between various man and zone coverages, the defender closest to a receiver isn’t always the player “burned.”

“How do you know?” said Grimes, adding he can’t always be certain when he’s watching games on TV.

Hornsby: “Most of the time, it’s brutally obvious. Some of the time, it isn’t.” He said that on those occasions, his staff will comb through various angles of a play before assigning a grade. It might even consult with team sources. “In at least 50 percent of the time, we can find out.”

It’s probably no coincidence that he says he’s “very, very proud” of the offensive linemen’s grades but “much less comfortable” with rankings for safeties.

Hornsby said subscribers include NFL players and about a third of the teams, although he declined to say whether the Dolphins are among them (a source indicated they are). He said some teams use Pro Football Focus to help with roster cuts.

Dolphins center Mike Pouncey said he supports grading offensive linemen, but “it better be somebody that played this sport and understands it. I could sit back and tell LeBron James to make a 3 every time, but I’ve never played basketball, so how can I criticize him?”

Hornsby, a business consultant, said each analyst undergoes six months of training. Grading on each play is done on a scale ranging from +2.0 to -2.0, with a 0 being average. Analysts are told if they’re not “95 percent sure” on a given play, not to assign a grade, but also not to be afraid to use judgment.

Hornsby believes objectivity is bolstered by having U.S.-based graders who don’t work for teams. Coaches, he said, “tend to like certain players because they’re nice guys.”

Hornsby cited a case of a weak team whose position coach had given all his players positive grades. The head coach colorfully pointed out that the team was getting crushed, obtained Pro Football Focus’ grades and said they were closer to reality. Many teams begin their relationship with Pro Football Focus “being sniffy,” Hornsby said, but quickly come around to thinking it’s “incredibly accurate.”

Hornsby sometimes tires of defending his ratings.

“There will always be people who won’t believe in it — up until the point they do,” he said.

“Sometimes I think I like the debate because the more debate you have, the more you’re challenged, the more stringent you have to be. But there are times you get fed up with it.”

Love it or scoff at it, the detailed numbers might be here to stay. Or even multiplying.

College Football Focus, Hornsby said, might be his next undertaking.


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/sport ... nki/nbLPG/

Those are some of the reasons I think their grading system is of higher value than the average fans opinion. Not perfect but with a good chance of being more right than fans.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Legend
Phinfever Legend

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:43 am
Posts: 2159
However, the guy Monson says in one of those quotes to not use it as a definitive answer to football questions, and I agree with him, I don't consider myself an average fan, I'm a student of the game, and I have been for 30 years, they do 6 month training courses for grading, imo that is not near enough, as Pouncey was quoted in there, they better have played they game to judge him, but they haven't, many of the graders are far from what you would consider an expert, which is one of the flaws.

It really just comes down to a simple precept, I trust my own eyes more than I do theirs, the same goes for writers, just prior to the season starting, Omar had Shelby listed as a bubble player, he's a professional sports writer...

I find their grading system to be off badly at times, like Tanne being the 7th best QB last year, and if your that far off the mark I can't put much stock in it, but that's my opinion, if yours differs thats fine, I just don't put a lot of stock in it.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:17 am 
Offline
User avatar
VIP Donor!
VIP Donor!

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:17 am
Posts: 6486
I completely disagree that the only way you can have validity to analyze a sport is if you have played it.

If we use Pouncey as a guide then I would guess no one should judge a player unless they have played at a pro level? Would a punter know how to judge a defensive back or an O lineman?

I have no idea about your specific knowledge of the game. From your postings on here you seem to be an average knowledgeable fan.

What would qualify one to be an expert. Intensive training, spending hours and hours breaking down game film, play by play, position by position, week after week, and doing it so well that you get people to pay you for your work. Some of the people who pay are nfl teams and people in the business.

It would seem logical, as a general rule, that kind of time, effort and success is of more value than the average fan's thoughts. I agree that to me PFF qb rankings need some more tweaking on their part but I have not sat down with them and have them show me what they are seeing and how the grade is being given so I am open to learning more about it.

Of course there is no problem with differing opinions. Go Phins.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:21 am 
Offline
User avatar
VIP Donor!
VIP Donor!

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 4:56 pm
Posts: 6865
Rich wrote:
Not so fast...

Yes, Shelby just had two sacks, but sacks can be misleading.

Yes, Shelby has half the snaps of Vernon, but both are equally effective against the run. However, Shelby's pass rush is not where it needs to be. Aside from the 2 sacks, he has 4 pressures for the season. Vernon has two sacks and 11 pressures. This despite the fact that Shelby has 79 pass rush snaps to Vernon's 130, so it is not double there.

Vernon is getting a sack or pressure on 10% of this pass rush snaps.

Shelby on 7%.

Also, Shelby lines up primarily as Wake's back up.


I don't see a PFF quote here? This stating a number of plays and the out come..

NOTHING to do with opinion unless you are gonna contest a pressure...


Last edited by Kev1321 on Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:22 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am
Posts: 26284
Location: Miami, FL
Finster wrote:
Listen Rich, I know your Pffolic, but not everyone is, and to many of us it is just another form of opinion, to you I understand it's a matter of faith, but to many of us it's wrong so often it's not worth paying much attention to.


So basically you're dodging my question and deflecting to PFF?

But they lack credibility?

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:23 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am
Posts: 26284
Location: Miami, FL
Finster wrote:
Kev1321 wrote:
Finster wrote:
Listen Rich, I know your Pffolic, but not everyone is, and to many of us it is just another form of opinion, to you I understand it's a matter of faith, but to many of us it's wrong so often it's not worth paying much attention to.


PFF opinion has nothing to do with what you said.


Except for everyone citing PFF, my original comment did not have anything to do with PFF, all of my opinions are from watching the games, opinions mind you, but every subsequent comment was based on posters citing PFF.


OK, and my question had nothing to do with PFF. My question was...

So if your opinion is based on what you have observed, does that mean you've observed every snap that every 4-3 defense end in the NFL has played this season?

If not, then what basis of comparison are you using to determine rankings?

So what is your answer? Or are you dodging because you realize you don't really have one....

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:24 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am
Posts: 26284
Location: Miami, FL
Finster wrote:
I don't agree with their grading system


You don't even know what their grading system is.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:28 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am
Posts: 26284
Location: Miami, FL
Finster wrote:
However, the guy Monson says in one of those quotes to not use it as a definitive answer to football questions, and I agree with him


You take it 10 steps further. You flat out dismiss it as soon as it doesn't agree with your much less informed opinion.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:31 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am
Posts: 26284
Location: Miami, FL
AQNOR wrote:
I completely disagree that the only way you can have validity to analyze a sport is if you have played it.

If we use Pouncey as a guide then I would guess no one should judge a player unless they have played at a pro level? Would a punter know how to judge a defensive back or an O lineman?

I have no idea about your specific knowledge of the game. From your postings on here you seem to be an average knowledgeable fan.

What would qualify one to be an expert. Intensive training, spending hours and hours breaking down game film, play by play, position by position, week after week, and doing it so well that you get people to pay you for your work. Some of the people who pay are nfl teams and people in the business.

It would seem logical, as a general rule, that kind of time, effort and success is of more value than the average fan's thoughts. I agree that to me PFF qb rankings need some more tweaking on their part but I have not sat down with them and have them show me what they are seeing and how the grade is being given so I am open to learning more about it.

Of course there is no problem with differing opinions. Go Phins.


To add to your point, there are scouts, GMs personnel people all across the NFL who get paid the big bucks (some who never played football by the way) who get it wrong a lot of the time. They are the so-caled elite of the elite when it comes to player evaluation. If they weren't they wouldn't be in the NFL. And yet most draft picks and many free agents turn out to be flops.

But I suppose PFF should be held to a higher standard than the elite of the elite.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:00 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Legend
Phinfever Legend

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:43 am
Posts: 2159
Rich wrote:
Finster wrote:
I don't agree with their grading system


You don't even know what their grading system is.


I know how it works better than you do.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:02 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Legend
Phinfever Legend

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:43 am
Posts: 2159
Rich wrote:
AQNOR wrote:
I completely disagree that the only way you can have validity to analyze a sport is if you have played it.

If we use Pouncey as a guide then I would guess no one should judge a player unless they have played at a pro level? Would a punter know how to judge a defensive back or an O lineman?

I have no idea about your specific knowledge of the game. From your postings on here you seem to be an average knowledgeable fan.

What would qualify one to be an expert. Intensive training, spending hours and hours breaking down game film, play by play, position by position, week after week, and doing it so well that you get people to pay you for your work. Some of the people who pay are nfl teams and people in the business.

It would seem logical, as a general rule, that kind of time, effort and success is of more value than the average fan's thoughts. I agree that to me PFF qb rankings need some more tweaking on their part but I have not sat down with them and have them show me what they are seeing and how the grade is being given so I am open to learning more about it.

Of course there is no problem with differing opinions. Go Phins.


To add to your point, there are scouts, GMs personnel people all across the NFL who get paid the big bucks (some who never played football by the way) who get it wrong a lot of the time. They are the so-caled elite of the elite when it comes to player evaluation. If they weren't they wouldn't be in the NFL. And yet most draft picks and many free agents turn out to be flops.

But I suppose PFF should be held to a higher standard than the elite of the elite.


Projecting players from college and evaluating how they played in an NFL game are 2 completely different subjects.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:04 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Legend
Phinfever Legend

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:43 am
Posts: 2159
Rich wrote:

OK, and my question had nothing to do with PFF. My question was...

So if your opinion is based on what you have observed, does that mean you've observed every snap that every 4-3 defense end in the NFL has played this season?

If not, then what basis of comparison are you using to determine rankings?

So what is your answer? Or are you dodging because you realize you don't really have one....


It's a non sensical question.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:05 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Legend
Phinfever Legend

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:43 am
Posts: 2159
Rich wrote:
Finster wrote:
However, the guy Monson says in one of those quotes to not use it as a definitive answer to football questions, and I agree with him


You take it 10 steps further. You flat out dismiss it as soon as it doesn't agree with your much less informed opinion.


I don't pay attention to the weather man either, because he is wrong so often.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:12 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am
Posts: 26284
Location: Miami, FL
Finster wrote:
Rich wrote:
Finster wrote:
I don't agree with their grading system


You don't even know what their grading system is.


I know how it works better than you do.


I highly doubt that seeing as how I actuall received training on it.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:12 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am
Posts: 26284
Location: Miami, FL
Finster wrote:
To add to your point, there are scouts, GMs personnel people all across the NFL who get paid the big bucks (some who never played football by the way) who get it wrong a lot of the time. They are the so-caled elite of the elite when it comes to player evaluation. If they weren't they wouldn't be in the NFL. And yet most draft picks and many free agents turn out to be flops.

But I suppose PFF should be held to a higher standard than the elite of the elite.


Projecting players from college and evaluating how they played in an NFL game are 2 completely different subjects.[/quote]

My post wasn't that long and I mentioned free agents in there. I don't know how you missed it.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:14 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am
Posts: 26284
Location: Miami, FL
Finster wrote:
Rich wrote:

OK, and my question had nothing to do with PFF. My question was...

So if your opinion is based on what you have observed, does that mean you've observed every snap that every 4-3 defense end in the NFL has played this season?

If not, then what basis of comparison are you using to determine rankings?

So what is your answer? Or are you dodging because you realize you don't really have one....


It's a non sensical question.


Well you said you don't agree with Olivier Vernon being ranked #13th overall. So you're just arguing out of thin air? Or did you actually do analysis?

And if you did analysis, did you analyze the players you would rank ahead of him as well?

Maybe what is non sensical is you determining where you would rank a player without actually doing analysis on him and his peers.

_________________
Image


Last edited by Rich on Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:15 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am
Posts: 26284
Location: Miami, FL
Finster wrote:
Rich wrote:
Finster wrote:
However, the guy Monson says in one of those quotes to not use it as a definitive answer to football questions, and I agree with him


You take it 10 steps further. You flat out dismiss it as soon as it doesn't agree with your much less informed opinion.


I don't pay attention to the weather man either, because he is wrong so often.


Cool, go boating in a skiff the next time they say there is a small craft advisory.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:22 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Legend
Phinfever Legend

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:43 am
Posts: 2159
Rich wrote:
Finster wrote:
To add to your point, there are scouts, GMs personnel people all across the NFL who get paid the big bucks (some who never played football by the way) who get it wrong a lot of the time. They are the so-caled elite of the elite when it comes to player evaluation. If they weren't they wouldn't be in the NFL. And yet most draft picks and many free agents turn out to be flops.

But I suppose PFF should be held to a higher standard than the elite of the elite.


Projecting players from college and evaluating how they played in an NFL game are 2 completely different subjects.


My post wasn't that long and I mentioned free agents in there. I don't know how you missed it.[/quote]

As well as projecting how players will play in your system, it's not that far of a leap to put that together, I didn't feel I had to also put that in, guess I was wrong...

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:25 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Legend
Phinfever Legend

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:43 am
Posts: 2159
Rich wrote:
Finster wrote:
Rich wrote:

OK, and my question had nothing to do with PFF. My question was...

So if your opinion is based on what you have observed, does that mean you've observed every snap that every 4-3 defense end in the NFL has played this season?

If not, then what basis of comparison are you using to determine rankings?

So what is your answer? Or are you dodging because you realize you don't really have one....


It's a non sensical question.


Well you said you don't agree with Olivier Vernon being ranked #13th overall. So you're just arguing out of thin air? Or did you actually do analysis?

And if you did analysis, did you analyze the players you would rank ahead of him as well?

Maybe what is non sensical is you determining where you would rank a player without actually doing analysis on him and his peers.


I don't have to see every snap by every player to know that both Wake and Vernon are not playing excellent right now.

_________________
Image


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Shelby or Vernon
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:46 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am
Posts: 26284
Location: Miami, FL
Finster wrote:
I don't have to see every snap by every player to know that both Wake and Vernon are not playing excellent right now.


Typical ball watcher syndrome.

I bet if Vernon had 5 sacks and 0 pressures and those 5 sacks were because the QB happened to be flushed in his direction, you'd be talking about what a great season Vernon is having.

_________________
Image


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 53 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 Next

All times are UTC-05:00


Phinfever Home Page

Phinfever Chatroom

Phinfever FAQ


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot], Phinsforever and 35 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited | Chopped and modified by Coots | Original design by Prosk8r