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 Post subject: Evaluating Tannenbaum
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:23 am 
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Last year Grier started to help bring in personnel to the Dolphins, but this is Tannenbaum's roster. We are treading water. Should he get another year? I would like to see Tannenbaum take a step back, and let Grier start to take move control of the draft and free agency. Surprisingly, bringing in high priced free agents has not worked to improve this team.

Dave Hyde wrote:
Another terrible truth is this roster isn’t any better than it was three years ago when Tannenbaum took over the personnel side with a long and lofty title. Let’s be real here. He’s the general manager. He’s in charge of the personnel side. He running the offseason with trades, contracts and final player decisions.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:36 am 
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No more half measures. Make them win with what they have or send Tannenbaum packing and let Grier tear it down to the studs.

Either the current squad produces a playoff win, or, if you're more than 75% unsure than make moves. You have assets to trade (Tannehill, Landry, James, Wake). Do what the Jets did aka draft as much talent as you can, sign low price free agent fillers and force the team to overachieve because you supposedly have the coach to inspire.

If Ross truly believes that the return of Tannehill, a few tweaks and the previous year of experience for the young guys (Harris, Tunsil, Godchaux, Howard, Tankersley, Grant) will make this team playoff caliber for another 4-5 years then make Mikey T win with that crowd. Don't let him spend big on any free agents.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:50 am 
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Can anyone here tell me how many mistakes/failures Tannenbaum has made in the last 5 years.
Also, how many 1st round choices failed when we could have chosen another player that excelled?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:42 am 
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Dave Hyde wrote:
Another terrible truth is this roster isn’t any better than it was three years ago when Tannenbaum took over the personnel side with a long and lofty title. Let’s be real here. He’s the general manager. He’s in charge of the personnel side. He running the offseason with trades, contracts and final player decisions.


Except Gase has the final say over the roster. Tannebaum isn't running that card up to the podium without Gase's say so. I know he's the great coming of Satan here, but really he hasn't been bad. I know we all cite the signing of Suh to that big fat contract as the definitive proof of why we don't want him here, but the reality is Suh has been fine. He's not the disaster of signing of Wallace and Ellerbe. If anything, he's a waste of talent because we can't surround him with good enough players.

As this offseason shakes out, you should be sussing out the true crucial problems in the organization. Our coaching staff can't seem to develop players or more criminally, evaluate them properly, and they certainly aren't preparing them well enough for game day.

Then Gase, needs to tell Tanneboum, "These are the type of players I need, these are the holes we need to fill, go get me players. he shouldn't specify which player, but the player type. Tannebaum needs to understand exactly what Gase is talking about and do his homework to get it. At this point, you don't want Gase evaluating and picking players not on the roster, he needs to concentrate on coaching and evaluating our own players. If that dynamic can't be established, than you just blow up the FO, Gase included.

Now, they do need another year to sort things out, as both are still working with an inherited roster, but that's all they should get. If they go into this offseason and you start hearing the same stupid things like this again, you know we're in trouble, it's just not going to work out:

"Well I haven't talked to Timons, so I don't where we'll play him at LB." (Then why the hell did you sign him? Not keeping Kiko at MLB was a huge mistake.)

"Guard is not a priority, Bushrod did a great job for us last year and Pouncey is still the best center in football." (Shows Gase can't properly evaluate players and see them descending.)

The sad thing about all of this, this roster can be fixed in one offseason if they're smart.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:15 pm 
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jammer wrote:
If Ross truly believes that the return of Tannehill, a few tweaks and the previous year of experience for the young guys (Harris, Tunsil, Godchaux, Howard, Tankersley, Grant) will make this team playoff caliber for another 4-5 years then make Mikey T win with that crowd. Don't let him spend big on any free agents.


Again not smart thinking, it doesn't have to be either or.

Let's examine the major problems on the roster (assuming Tannehill is the guy.)

We can't cover the slot, TE's RB's. We need a Free Safety or a coverage LB, and definitely more LB depth. At #11 in this draft we're sitting pretty to either grab DERWIN JAMES, S or ROQUAN SMITH, OLB. Either solves half the problem, so you finish it by drafting someone like JUSTIN REID, s in the 3rd round or OLB (like Dorian O'Daniel) in the 4th and if you move McDonald to hybrid, you've got the problem solved.

Left guard is a huge need and Isaiah Winn or other fits the bill perfectly in the 2nd round. Double down and select a guard in the later rounds. Keep James, offer him 6-7 million a year for 4 yrs. OL is now fixed.

Don't be stupid and overpay Landry. We have a practice squad full of wr's we're sitting on and Grant, who we need to use more. This draft also has some nice sleepers to take a shot on in the later round.

What you want is a big play TE out of this draft. There are a few sleepers in the third round, maybe the 4th if we're lucky, but now let Tannebaum do his thing and move up to get a good one. Or you could grab one of the running backs that fall. Go all in in FA and try to sign Trey Burton TE, Eagles.

That still leaves Pass rush to be addressed and if we go James, Smith at 1-11 and G at 2-11. You can never have enough pass rushers and here is where I'd tell Tannebaum to go do his thing and sign Ziggy Ansah.

We also need to sign a back up qb cheaply and draft one in the lower rounds to develop.

It's that easy to fix the roster (getting Gase his guys), the big question remains can they develop and use them right?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:50 pm 
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zatrex99 wrote:
Again not smart thinking, it doesn't have to be either or.


Outside of the Ziggy Ansah signing, how is anything of what you just wrote in disagreement with what I said?

I said work with your guys, I thought drafting well was just assumed, and maybe a few tweaks aka 2016 bargain signings/deals like the ones that brought Branch and Alonso.

I don't think you have to pay James $6 million. Wasn't Sam Young just as serviceable? Didn't the line play better as a unit after James went down?

I don't want Tannenbaum to clear $50 million in space and then do some sort of half butt roster overhaul with overpaid FA signings. I believe he tried that in NY when he knew he was in trouble, and Miami seems to dabble in it every couple of years. He has been in charge of picking guys and making signings since 2015. Gase can advocate for things, but its not his direct call. Having roster control means he picks the 53. Now he clearly had Tannenbaum's ear this past offseason and it didn't work.

The good news is that all of these new position coach signings are being praised in the media.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:13 pm 
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jammer wrote:
I said work with your guys, I thought drafting well was just assumed, and maybe a few tweaks aka 2016 bargain signings/deals like the ones that brought Branch and Alonso.


I was trying, rather badly it seems, to show, that with a good draft and a few, smart FA signings can work.

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I don't think you have to pay James $6 million. Wasn't Sam Young just as serviceable? Didn't the line play better as a unit after James went down?

If you say goodbye to James and run with Young at RT to save money (Davis has RG locked down) you're now taking much needed depth and slightly downgrading the OL. If you slide Davis to RT, you have a hole at LG, RG and a shaky center. Larsen to RG? Ehh. Essentially you're trying the same thing they tried last year.

Now if you can sign either Pugh from the Giants or Norwell from the Panthers to play LG, then draft a RT or G that can start right away, sure drop James. But that scenario will cost you the same as picking up James 5th yr option. (If they can zone block, I haven't checked that out.)

And no, I don't feel the line got better, it still couldn't run block consistently, and had problems giving Cutler time for long throws. What did help it was Drake being able to pass block.

Quote:
I don't want Tannenbaum to clear $50 million in space and then do some sort of half butt roster overhaul with overpaid FA signings. I believe he tried that in NY when he knew he was in trouble, and Miami seems to dabble in it every couple of years. He has been in charge of picking guys and making signings since 2015. Gase can advocate for things, but its not his direct call. Having roster control means he picks the 53. Now he clearly had Tannenbaum's ear this past offseason and it didn't work.


I agree you don't want him to go crazy, and supposedly Miami now has this philosophy of liking to shop in the clearance bin so they don't lose comp picks and that's smart to an extent. Didn't work out so well mostly this year, but injuries played a big part in that.

But if you can be smart, you do want to take some shots. No you don't sign Le'Veon Bell, you have Drake and can draft a RB later in the draft. Signing Jimmy Gramam to solve the TE position would be another bad one. (He's 31 and looks like he is losing a step.)

Let me pose this question: if for the same 12 million a yr for 4 yrs you can sign Landry, I can give you Norwell at G, and Burton at TE? (Two very promising young players.) Which would you do?

Then what if I said fine, I'll let James go and plug that position in the draft if you let me pay Ziggy Ansah 8 million a yr for 4 yrs.

The bad news is we'd lose our comp picks for Landry and James doing so.

My point is as long as your smart and don't crazy, FA is an essential tool

Quote:
The good news is that all of these new position coach signings are being praised in the media.
Hopefully this is a sign Gase is learning. It's good to see.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:35 pm 
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I see where your logic is and I agree that the money could be better spent, but the names your giving will receive much higher deals. Dion Sims got $6 million per year in Chicago, so Trey Burton (a better overall player) will get north of that. Norwell is the top guard so you're looking at $8 million per year. Ziggy Ansah? Olivier Vernon got and average $17 million per year and Jason Paul Pierre got $15 million average per year. $8 million might get you a decent, young DE.

As I said before, if Tannenbaum wants to cut Wake, Pouncey and other names we expect and then put the team in further cap H-E-Double Hockey Sticks (I miss that phrase from my youth) just to buy himself another year or two.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:44 am 
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jammer wrote:
I see where your logic is.


Sorry, I didn't mean to go off on you, Jammer. In my free time, I've really been examining players for the draft, trying to figure how to solve our problems and make this a playoff team without doing anything crazy or unrealistic (as they would, not how I would). It's fun and allows me to use play with Fan Speak's on the clock as if I were drafting (and yes I spent the 10$ so I could trade, LOL.)

I also qualify myself and say I've never watched tape (youtube is the best I can do right now) on prospects before now, and it seems I'm constantly watching, learning a ton. You want to burn down a weekend and make yourself crazy, watch tape on prospective LB's that can solve our pass coverage problems if we don't draft Roquan Smith. Maddening.

I see our most pressing needs as FS or pass coverage LB with McDonald playing hybrid, Pass Rusher, LG, backup C that can play guard positions. It be great to draft a TE and RB (has to be in the first 4 rounds for both, TE, maybe top 3) So yes, while I'm not worried about resigning Landry, I want to resign Jones not to put another need in the draft plan. Realistically, I need 4 picks in the first three rounds. It'd be a huge help to sign one of those needs in FA, which is why I didn't want that option taken away.

Okay, Back to topic.

My opinion right now, which keeps evolving as the offseason unravels is that I don't won't Gase picking the groceries, I don't think he evaluates players well. I think he's a 'I see the forest, not the individual leafs kind of guy.' I also think he may be such a narcissist, he needs his players to love him, which has all sort of bad implications.

But I don't want Tannebaum to be over him and if these rumors you suggest are true, there is a power struggle, then I want him gone. I want a GM that says I know what Gase wants, know he can adapt if I bring in certain players, I'm going to get him what he needs. It's not about ego but about winning. Gase has to make pizza, so I'm not going to provide him with taco makings.

Remember what you said about having a football czar (Peyton Manning)? I think that's the way to go. Gase coaches, the GM provides the players, and the Czar makes the final decisions.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:10 am 
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zatrex99 wrote:
Sorry, I didn't mean to go off on you, Jammer. In my free time, I've really been examining players for the draft, trying to figure how to solve our problems and make this a playoff team without doing anything crazy or unrealistic (as they would, not how I would). It's fun and allows me to use play with Fan Speak's on the clock as if I were drafting (and yes I spent the 10$ so I could trade, LOL.)

I also qualify myself and say I've never watched tape (youtube is the best I can do right now) on prospects before now, and it seems I'm constantly watching, learning a ton. You want to burn down a weekend and make yourself crazy, watch tape on prospective LB's that can solve our pass coverage problems if we don't draft Roquan Smith. Maddening.

I see our most pressing needs as FS or pass coverage LB with McDonald playing hybrid, Pass Rusher, LG, backup C that can play guard positions. It be great to draft a TE and RB (has to be in the first 4 rounds for both, TE, maybe top 3) So yes, while I'm not worried about resigning Landry, I want to resign Jones not to put another need in the draft plan. Realistically, I need 4 picks in the first three rounds. It'd be a huge help to sign one of those needs in FA, which is why I didn't want that option taken away.

Okay, Back to topic.

My opinion right now, which keeps evolving as the offseason unravels is that I don't won't Gase picking the groceries, I don't think he evaluates players well. I think he's a 'I see the forest, not the individual leafs kind of guy.' I also think he may be such a narcissist, he needs his players to love him, which has all sort of bad implications.

But I don't want Tannebaum to be over him and if these rumors you suggest are true, there is a power struggle, then I want him gone. I want a GM that says I know what Gase wants, know he can adapt if I bring in certain players, I'm going to get him what he needs. It's not about ego but about winning. Gase has to make pizza, so I'm not going to provide him with taco makings.

Remember what you said about having a football czar (Peyton Manning)? I think that's the way to go. Gase coaches, the GM provides the players, and the Czar makes the final decisions.


What in the crap are you apologizing for? Keep the conversation going.

This team has a lot of holes, but if key people improve (or return) and play to the level we expect then 2018 should be a playoff year. Just seems there is a lot to bank on for that to happen.

Peyton Manning is an exciting name, however no one knows if he can evaluate talent and pick the groceries. Elway did nicely for a while but even he has a lot of misses in the last couple of seasons. My preference would a highly thought of assistant GM or VP who has proven himself on another team.

I agree with you on Gase. Let him have some say, but maybe just give him good football players rather than highly talented personality projects. Belichick always says they go for the good football player over the upside guy and that's why his system is so successful. If Gase is provided with guys who can efficiently execute their assignments then perhaps we'll see if he is an offensive genius.

I also think Miami needs a more experienced guy to help Burke. Let Burke keep his title but he needs an experienced coordinator to help him build a better plan.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:41 pm 
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We went into 2017 with like 40 million in cap space and 8 draft picks I think, and the roster got worse. Was there any player brought in in 2017 that really stood out? Tannenbum needs to be shown the door.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:30 am 
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what a gig this football thing is...millions made by individuals that are unable to improve things, just keep things the same, which ought to not be difficult. I think those fans that annually pay close attention and dedicate unique interest in the game could run a team at .500 year in year out. Even w/out a personnel dept, which costs a lot of money for what they produce. We could get most of our personnel info just from internet sites, scout some of the people in depth but ultimately go with the norm, and so long as we have a QB and spend up to the cap we could easily run a .500 team. And getting a QB to play .500 ball isn't difficult, several land in FA every year. So, my point is that Tennenbaum's track record in NY and here should be more than enough evidence for Ross to get rid of him. The guy wasn't hired to maintain status quo but despite his lip service, which is probably his biggest asset, that's all he's been able to do, and the owner, if the team makes him money, doesn't really have to be rocking the boat all that much with changes. Ross can give us the party line he's in it to win the SB but really, what else is he going to say?

As has been our history, the Dolphins will waste a couple of more non-playoff years before they rid themselves of this guy and maybe even the head coach and the cycle will begin once again.

So guys, get your resumes ready.


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