All times are UTC-05:00


Phinfever Home Page

Phinfever Chatroom

Phinfever FAQ




Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:46 am 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 386
It’s like a sick joke now. You replace Vernon with Branch, Clay with ???, Matthews with Stills. They either pay twice as much for similar production or half the price for half the production. Just awful, horrid.


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:28 am 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:39 pm
Posts: 289
I like the signing.

Dude was going to get paid no matter what. 24th ranked wr according to PFF, for what it's worth. I don't necessarily think this is supposed to be a direct replacement for Landry, but I do think Landy getting traded will finally show if Parker is valuable(if healthy) to this team, as he should be seeing more targets.

The others you mentioned got paid big time, something that has panned out to favor us not resigning them (Vernon, Clay, etc)


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:22 am 
Offline
User avatar
VIP Donor!
VIP Donor!

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:43 pm
Posts: 5846
Location: Wellington, FL
If they can utilize him he can be better...

Jarvis was a hot target, next option is Stills and following that was a week to week ? of who shows up....

Not sure how they used Wilson in KC, but having Kelce and Hill cant really help you get more targets lol

_________________
Caution: Reply may contain sarcasm


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:33 am 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 386
Project86JLL13 wrote:
I like the signing.

Dude was going to get paid no matter what. 24th ranked wr according to PFF, for what it's worth. I don't necessarily think this is supposed to be a direct replacement for Landry, but I do think Landy getting traded will finally show if Parker is valuable(if healthy) to this team, as he should be seeing more targets.

The others you mentioned got paid big time, something that has panned out to favor us not resigning them (Vernon, Clay, etc)


How has it worked out that the phins lost production and didn’t replace it? No matter how good Wilson “might” be, you don’t over pay 2s and 3s, you pay premium for your top players and fill the rest. The top GMs use half the total salary on 6 to 8 players. You don’t pay a third string receiver top 10 on your roster. This is why Tennenbaum is regarded as an awful exec and he’s trashing this team.


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:12 pm 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:39 pm
Posts: 289
ggippo wrote:
Project86JLL13 wrote:
I like the signing.

Dude was going to get paid no matter what. 24th ranked wr according to PFF, for what it's worth. I don't necessarily think this is supposed to be a direct replacement for Landry, but I do think Landy getting traded will finally show if Parker is valuable(if healthy) to this team, as he should be seeing more targets.

The others you mentioned got paid big time, something that has panned out to favor us not resigning them (Vernon, Clay, etc)


How has it worked out that the phins lost production and didn’t replace it? No matter how good Wilson “might” be, you don’t over pay 2s and 3s, you pay premium for your top players and fill the rest. The top GMs use half the total salary on 6 to 8 players. You don’t pay a third string receiver top 10 on your roster. This is why Tennenbaum is regarded as an awful exec and he’s trashing this team.


Huh? Vernon has done just as much in NY than Branch has done here, and Branch is 6mil less/ season... And phins arent financially tied to him as long. That would have been a horrible resigning at the price Vernon was demanding...

Stills took less than what he would have got by staying last year, and has put up similar stats to Matthews. Still just got his payday last year, which is 3 mill more/year than Matthews, but I think Stills is way more of a mainstay in Gase offense than Matthews is in Tennessee. Stills played more snaps than any other wr on the team last year.

There were a lot of teams interested in Wilson, he wanted to play in Miami...isn't that a good thing?

This time of the year, players aren't paid for what they have done, but the potential of what they might do. Take into consideration the inflation year to year, as well as the cap going up, players are demanding more, that's what pro football is.

I do think the front office should be more focused on addressing the trenches. Also, Gase should be more concerned with developing the talent he has at the position that we seem to be addressing the most over the last three years, wide receiver.


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:16 pm 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 386
Before you “huh?” you better check Vernon and Branch’s stats again. Why the hell would you overpay “potential” and not your future hall of famers? Yes market value is inflated, which is why you keep the best players in the league on your roster so you don’t have to desperately overpay mediocre or unknown variables to fill holes! Check the best rosters in the league. The 6 to 8 top players take about $85 million or half the teams salary.


Top
   
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:41 pm 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:39 pm
Posts: 289
ggippo wrote:
Before you “huh?” you better check Vernon and Branch’s stats again. Why the hell would you overpay “potential” and not your future hall of famers? Yes market value is inflated, which is why you keep the best players in the league on your roster so you don’t have to desperately overpay mediocre or unknown variables to fill holes! Check the best rosters in the league. The 6 to 8 top players take about $85 million or half the teams salary.



Olivier Vernon
2016 $13.00 million Sacks 8.5 Tackles 46 Assists 18 FF 1
2017 $16.00 million Sacks 6.5 Tackles 23 Assists 14 FF 2


Andre Branch
2016 $2.75 million Sacks 5.5 Tackles 27 Assists 22 FF 2
2017 $5.00 million Sacks 4.5 Tackles 12 Assists 11 FF 0

If my math is correct, that's 15 sacks vs 10 sacks...a difference of 2.5 sacks/year average. Branch might have been less productive, but not by much, especially considering snap count. Branch was in a situational pass rush rotation (53% of defensive snaps), whereas Vernon is a starter (only 63% of defensive snaps) with a difference of over $22 million (Vernon has been 4x more expensive than Branch in these past two years) for that minimal difference in production. Talk about overpaying players, Vernon is a prime example. There is an out for both franchises in 2019, which I'd expect both NY and Miami will be taking, considering Vernon has not lived up to his contract and Miami having addressed the position with younger talent. In no way am I a big fan of Branch, but I think that right move was made in regards to signing him and letting Vernon walk. Just using the example that was originally posted.



Kenny Stills
2016 $1.67 million Rec 42 Yards 726 Avg 17.3 TD 9 Long 74
2017 $3.75 million Rec 58 Yards 847 Avg 14.6 TD 6 Long 61


Rishard Matthews
2016 $3.33 million Rec 65 Yards 945 Avg 14.5 TD 9 Long 60
2017 $6.33 million Rec 53 Yards 795 Avg 15.0 TD 4 Long 75

Based off the other comparison made...but again, similar production, but half the cost. Stills was the better investment for the long haul, hence his extension last year. Not to mention, he is younger by 3 years.


But back to point of topic (Wilson), this is the time of year that all players get overpaid. I don't love the contract (pending specifics), but I like the signing. It just happens to be, or what seems to be going rate for WR's, especially considering the market. The silver lining here is that its a 3 year deal, and not a 5 year deal some of the others available guys are wanting or demanding. Seeing the contracts other "big name" free agents are getting this offseason, Landry should be licking his chops and using these signings as a floor to his contract. If Sammy Watkins is getting avg of $16 million/year, Landry will definitely be using that as a bargaining tactic when negotiating his new contract with Cleveland. Hall of Famer or not, I dont think/want the Phins paying close to $20 million/year on one slot receiver. I hate to see him go to another team, to lose the passion and drive he brought to the team, but there's other players that can fill his role...may not be the athlete he was, may not mean as much to the team as he did, my not play with the passion he brought, but will be way more affordable.

The best rosters may have the top 6 to 8 players consuming half the cap, but those teams also know when trade or cut a talented player or let them test free agency when their contract demands are too high.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:25 am 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 386
Project86JLL13 wrote:
ggippo wrote:
Before you “huh?” you better check Vernon and Branch’s stats again. Why the hell would you overpay “potential” and not your future hall of famers? Yes market value is inflated, which is why you keep the best players in the league on your roster so you don’t have to desperately overpay mediocre or unknown variables to fill holes! Check the best rosters in the league. The 6 to 8 top players take about $85 million or half the teams salary.



Olivier Vernon
2016 $13.00 million Sacks 8.5 Tackles 46 Assists 18 FF 1
2017 $16.00 million Sacks 6.5 Tackles 23 Assists 14 FF 2


Andre Branch
2016 $2.75 million Sacks 5.5 Tackles 27 Assists 22 FF 2
2017 $5.00 million Sacks 4.5 Tackles 12 Assists 11 FF 0

If my math is correct, that's 15 sacks vs 10 sacks...a difference of 2.5 sacks/year average. Branch might have been less productive, but not by much, especially considering snap count. Branch was in a situational pass rush rotation (53% of defensive snaps), whereas Vernon is a starter (only 63% of defensive snaps) with a difference of over $22 million (Vernon has been 4x more expensive than Branch in these past two years) for that minimal difference in production. Talk about overpaying players, Vernon is a prime example. There is an out for both franchises in 2019, which I'd expect both NY and Miami will be taking, considering Vernon has not lived up to his contract and Miami having addressed the position with younger talent. In no way am I a big fan of Branch, but I think that right move was made in regards to signing him and letting Vernon walk. Just using the example that was originally posted.



Kenny Stills
2016 $1.67 million Rec 42 Yards 726 Avg 17.3 TD 9 Long 74
2017 $3.75 million Rec 58 Yards 847 Avg 14.6 TD 6 Long 61


Rishard Matthews
2016 $3.33 million Rec 65 Yards 945 Avg 14.5 TD 9 Long 60
2017 $6.33 million Rec 53 Yards 795 Avg 15.0 TD 4 Long 75

Based off the other comparison made...but again, similar production, but half the cost. Stills was the better investment for the long haul, hence his extension last year. Not to mention, he is younger by 3 years.


But back to point of topic (Wilson), this is the time of year that all players get overpaid. I don't love the contract (pending specifics), but I like the signing. It just happens to be, or what seems to be going rate for WR's, especially considering the market. The silver lining here is that its a 3 year deal, and not a 5 year deal some of the others available guys are wanting or demanding. Seeing the contracts other "big name" free agents are getting this offseason, Landry should be licking his chops and using these signings as a floor to his contract. If Sammy Watkins is getting avg of $16 million/year, Landry will definitely be using that as a bargaining tactic when negotiating his new contract with Cleveland. Hall of Famer or not, I dont think/want the Phins paying close to $20 million/year on one slot receiver. I hate to see him go to another team, to lose the passion and drive he brought to the team, but there's other players that can fill his role...may not be the athlete he was, may not mean as much to the team as he did, my not play with the passion he brought, but will be way more affordable.

The best rosters may have the top 6 to 8 players consuming half the cap, but those teams also know when trade or cut a talented player or let them test free agency when their contract demands are too high.


Your post is full of contradicting opinions favoring the historically bad managements decisions.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:05 am 
Offline
User avatar
VIP Donor!
VIP Donor!

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 3:56 pm
Posts: 6865
Vernon missed games due to injury.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:37 am 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 386
Vernon was out 4 games last year and his stats were down. He also has 23 tackles for loss compared to Branch’s 13.

Anyway, the overall point is, you gotta pay some big contracts to about 5 or 6 players. Why pay Quinn and Branch, part time players, 21 million, when you can pay a full tome starting pro bowler 17 million. I understand the argument for not overpaying players. But the dolphins do overpay players! The wrong players!


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:35 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am
Posts: 26254
Location: Miami, FL
ggippo wrote:
Your post is full of contradicting opinions favoring the historically bad managements decisions.


Actually, while I don't disagree with your point on Wilson, his post sort of tore apart most of your arguments.

_________________
Image


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:43 am 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 386
Rich wrote:
ggippo wrote:
Your post is full of contradicting opinions favoring the historically bad managements decisions.


Actually, while I don't disagree with your point on Wilson, his post sort of tore apart most of your arguments.


No it didn’t. He advocated for less proven or role players to be overpaid as opposed to full time pro bowl starters.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:58 am 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 386
He made a blanket statement about a teams 6 to 8 players taking half the cap but being allowed to move on, which is a partial truth. The best teams keep their best players. They let them walk when they can be directly replaced. But they don’t go out and overpay for lesser talent as a stop gap. They draft well and reload or they pay to keep their players.

Vernon at 17 makes more since than Branch and Hayes or Quinn at 21
Matthews at 5 makes more since than Stills at 9
Landry at 15 makes more since than Wilson and Amendola at 13 or 14
Suh makes like 8 more than the next tackle Cox. Obviously overpaid
Alonzo makes close to 10. Obviously overpaid.

This is why the Dolphins don’t have a base to build around. This is a front office problem.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:11 am 
Offline
User avatar
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game
Phinfever Blog Writer - Post Game

Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am
Posts: 26254
Location: Miami, FL
ggippo wrote:
Rich wrote:
ggippo wrote:
Your post is full of contradicting opinions favoring the historically bad managements decisions.


Actually, while I don't disagree with your point on Wilson, his post sort of tore apart most of your arguments.


No it didn’t. He advocated for less proven or role players to be overpaid as opposed to full time pro bowl starters.


Those less proven players produced more dollar for dollar. To argue that we should have kept Olivier Vernon given the ridiculous contract he got is sort of ridiculous... minus the sort of.

_________________
Image


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:37 am 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:39 pm
Posts: 289
ggippo wrote:
Vernon was out 4 games last year and his stats were down. He also has 23 tackles for loss compared to Branch’s 13.

Anyway, the overall point is, you gotta pay some big contracts to about 5 or 6 players. Why pay Quinn and Branch, part time players, 21 million, when you can pay a full tome starting pro bowler 17 million. I understand the argument for not overpaying players. But the dolphins do overpay players! The wrong players!


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:38 am 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:39 pm
Posts: 289
My bad....meant to post a reply lol.


Last edited by Project86JLL13 on Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:40 am 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:39 pm
Posts: 289
ggippo wrote:
Vernon was out 4 games last year and his stats were down. He also has 23 tackles for loss compared to Branch’s 13.

Anyway, the overall point is, you gotta pay some big contracts to about 5 or 6 players. Why pay Quinn and Branch, part time players, 21 million, when you can pay a full tome starting pro bowler 17 million. I understand the argument for not overpaying players. But the dolphins do overpay players! The wrong players!


What "opinions" are contradicting? You asked me to look at stats, so I did. I'm not trying at all to favor the horrible management, I'm just trying to point out that not all players are worth hanging on to, knowing when to let the player walk...and that in free agency, people always get overpaid, mainly for what their potential is. Obviously Miami didn't think the potential of mentioned players you pointed out were worth overpaying, and thank goodness, it has actually worked out for them.

Clay hasn't been healthy, but it's still a position Miami stuggles to fill. I'd say that non signing is a push.

You really think Olivier Vernon was worth 85 million? I didn't think so at the time he was signed by NY, and I still don't think so. I understand he was injured 4 games...what's that average out to? Another 2 sacks. So an average of 8.5 sacks per year since signing with NY...still not worth overpaying for.

There's still a possibility of Quinn restructuring or signing an extension, which will lower his cap hit. Still though...those part time players may see the field less, but that's also less chance of injury, which happened in Vernon's case as well as in the past with Quinn.

Quinn (same age as Vernon) was on the field 58% and managed 8.5 sacks being out of position last year. Add that to Branch's 4.5, and that's 13. If that carries through to this season at their current contracts at the combined 21 million you mentioned, that's $1.6 mill per sack (13), compared to $2 mill per sack (8.5) with Vernon. So, more sacks for a cheaper price.

I'm aware of the tackles for loss, but am primarily focused on what these guys were brought to each of their teams for, sacking the qb. I'm aware of the tackles for loss, and I do think Vernon is a better player than Branch, especially against the run....but again, not worth what he was demanding.

In the Landry situation, Miami just got 2 players for what will end up being a few million less...both relatively short term investments, one being young and one being a veteran leader (maybe to show the others how it's done?). I liked Landry just as much as I liked Vernon (actually really liked Landry), Miami wasn't going anywhere with them (or Matthews, Clay). These players that have been jettisoned are also players that we're here prior to Gases arrival. So maybe, just maybe, he's still trying to mold the roster to his fitting.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:17 pm 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:47 pm
Posts: 422
After reading about the other WR signings around the league, I like our two signings pretty well


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar
VIP Donor!
VIP Donor!

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 3:56 pm
Posts: 6865
Vernon is another case of not doing a contract before it was too late....It should have never have come down to competing with an open market..Just like What happened with Landry..You can't expect to make a team friendly deal after giving up all your leverage..

Vernon should have been franchised and kept for one more year and giving more time to replace him.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:37 pm 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 386
Rich wrote:
ggippo wrote:
Rich wrote:
ggippo wrote:
Your post is full of contradicting opinions favoring the historically bad managements decisions.


Actually, while I don't disagree with your point on Wilson, his post sort of tore apart most of your arguments.


No it didn’t. He advocated for less proven or role players to be overpaid as opposed to full time pro bowl starters.


Those less proven players produced more dollar for dollar. To argue that we should have kept Olivier Vernon given the ridiculous contract he got is sort of ridiculous... minus the sort of.


Oh I see is that how team building works. You take players with smaller play time samples and extrapolate it out to as if they were full time, and then justify “dollar for dollar.” Cmon Rich. You have to pay your best players to keep them. If they actually had a luxury of keeping multiple good players at fair prices, that’s one thing. They don’t have that luxury.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:40 pm 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 386
Project86JLL13 wrote:
ggippo wrote:
Vernon was out 4 games last year and his stats were down. He also has 23 tackles for loss compared to Branch’s 13.

Anyway, the overall point is, you gotta pay some big contracts to about 5 or 6 players. Why pay Quinn and Branch, part time players, 21 million, when you can pay a full tome starting pro bowler 17 million. I understand the argument for not overpaying players. But the dolphins do overpay players! The wrong players!


What "opinions" are contradicting? You asked me to look at stats, so I did. I'm not trying at all to favor the horrible management, I'm just trying to point out that not all players are worth hanging on to, knowing when to let the player walk...and that in free agency, people always get overpaid, mainly for what their potential is. Obviously Miami didn't think the potential of mentioned players you pointed out were worth overpaying, and thank goodness, it has actually worked out for them.

Clay hasn't been healthy, but it's still a position Miami stuggles to fill. I'd say that non signing is a push.

You really think Olivier Vernon was worth 85 million? I didn't think so at the time he was signed by NY, and I still don't think so. I understand he was injured 4 games...what's that average out to? Another 2 sacks. So an average of 8.5 sacks per year since signing with NY...still not worth overpaying for.

There's still a possibility of Quinn restructuring or signing an extension, which will lower his cap hit. Still though...those part time players may see the field less, but that's also less chance of injury, which happened in Vernon's case as well as in the past with Quinn.

Quinn (same age as Vernon) was on the field 58% and managed 8.5 sacks being out of position last year. Add that to Branch's 4.5, and that's 13. If that carries through to this season at their current contracts at the combined 21 million you mentioned, that's $1.6 mill per sack (13), compared to $2 mill per sack (8.5) with Vernon. So, more sacks for a cheaper price.

I'm aware of the tackles for loss, but am primarily focused on what these guys were brought to each of their teams for, sacking the qb. I'm aware of the tackles for loss, and I do think Vernon is a better player than Branch, especially against the run....but again, not worth what he was demanding.

In the Landry situation, Miami just got 2 players for what will end up being a few million less...both relatively short term investments, one being young and one being a veteran leader (maybe to show the others how it's done?). I liked Landry just as much as I liked Vernon (actually really liked Landry), Miami wasn't going anywhere with them (or Matthews, Clay). These players that have been jettisoned are also players that we're here prior to Gases arrival. So maybe, just maybe, he's still trying to mold the roster to his fitting.


It’s contradicting because you are justifying that players should be overpaid. Just different players.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:53 pm 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 386
You know you say Vernon isn’t worth the money but a team that has two Super Bowls in the last ten years thought he was worth it. You use some logic that the stats of two players combined are better than one, even though they have to now share playing time. Lemme ask you what’s a better combo in terms of proven production. Landry and Matthews or Stills and Wilson? You see there is always room to pay your best players if you pay your ones like ones and your twos like twos. If you commit to your five or six best players and respect them. When they age out of the second contract then you pay the next one up.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar
VIP Donor!
VIP Donor!

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 3:56 pm
Posts: 6865
You can't keep them all...But this is becoming a habit for the current front office.

And it's not working.

Getting rid of Landry is a mistake although I'm sure Landry is getting a little sick of not having a legit qb. Cant blame him. We've seen the frustration from him over the past three years.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:53 pm 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:39 pm
Posts: 289
ggippo wrote:
You know you say Vernon isn’t worth the money but a team that has two Super Bowls in the last ten years thought he was worth it. You use some logic that the stats of two players combined are better than one, even though they have to now share playing time. Lemme ask you what’s a better combo in terms of proven production. Landry and Matthews or Stills and Wilson? You see there is always room to pay your best players if you pay your ones like ones and your twos like twos. If you commit to your five or six best players and respect them. When they age out of the second contract then you pay the next one up.


There's always going to be a team that will overpay, I've said this multiple times already. NY just happens to be the team that fell for it, and look at them now...2 of the highest paid DEs (#3 & 4) in the league for 15 combined sacks...surprising that Branch and Wake had the same amount for almost half cost.

To answer your question, of course Landry and Matthews is the better combo in terms of production. But, I'm considering contracts as part of the reply to the topic at hand when I'm breaking this down.

I've already mentioned that I would have loved to had Landry back, but not what he was asking for. This leaves room to make sure that Miami CAN commit to it's 5 or 6 best players once the roster is shaped in a manner Gase sees fit. I don't view Landry as a true "number 1" wr, so I wouldn't want the team I root for to be put in cap struggles down the road. He may have been the first read and put up historical numbers, made defenders miss after the catch, but there's plenty out there that suggest the had to be "schemed open"...he, just like Vernon, are expendable for what their contract demands are/were. We're talking Antonio Brown, DeAndre Hopkins, AJ Green money...for Landry.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:56 pm 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:39 pm
Posts: 289
ggippo wrote:
It’s contradicting because you are justifying that players should be overpaid. Just different players.


Where in any of my posts am I doing this? Most of the replacement players you mentioned are getting the going rate.

My response are based off of your original assessment:

ggippo wrote:
It’s like a sick joke now. You replace Vernon with Branch, Clay with ???, Matthews with Stills. They either pay twice as much for similar production or half the price for half the production. Just awful, horrid.


None of these comparisons that you made come close to being paid twice as much for similar production, or even half the price for half the production. I've even laid it out for you statistically with contract details.

In fact, of the Six 4-3 DE with an average/year salary between Quinn and Branch last year (Jordan, Bennett, Curry, Wake, Hughes, Crawford) only 3 exceeded Branch's season of 4.5 sacks (Jordan 13, Bennett 8.5, Wake 10.5...oh, each more than Vernon), and yes, all 6 participated in 16 games. If you ask me, the salary that both Quinn and Branch are getting is going rate, not over paid, and is justifiable if Miami is focusing on a defense that is predicated on getting to the QB. The only unjustifiable part would have been resigning any of the guys you mentioned for what they wanted and what they got at that specific time....

and again, who's to say that Gase wanted those players to begin with?


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar
VIP Donor!
VIP Donor!

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 3:56 pm
Posts: 6865
They could have paid Landry more money the past year or even two instead of making him play out his rookie contract.(he was worth far more) All while extending a couple years at say 11 or 12 million.. they could have done that with other guys and haven't... What they get on the open market has nothing to do with why they are not still on the team.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:16 pm 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 386
Project86JLL13 wrote:
ggippo wrote:
You know you say Vernon isn’t worth the money but a team that has two Super Bowls in the last ten years thought he was worth it. You use some logic that the stats of two players combined are better than one, even though they have to now share playing time. Lemme ask you what’s a better combo in terms of proven production. Landry and Matthews or Stills and Wilson? You see there is always room to pay your best players if you pay your ones like ones and your twos like twos. If you commit to your five or six best players and respect them. When they age out of the second contract then you pay the next one up.


There's always going to be a team that will overpay, I've said this multiple times already. NY just happens to be the team that fell for it, and look at them now...2 of the highest paid DEs (#3 & 4) in the league for 15 combined sacks...surprising that Branch and Wake had the same amount for almost half cost.

To answer your question, of course Landry and Matthews is the better combo in terms of production. But, I'm considering contracts as part of the reply to the topic at hand when I'm breaking this down.

I've already mentioned that I would have loved to had Landry back, but not what he was asking for. This leaves room to make sure that Miami CAN commit to it's 5 or 6 best players once the roster is shaped in a manner Gase sees fit. I don't view Landry as a true "number 1" wr, so I wouldn't want the team I root for to be put in cap struggles down the road. He may have been the first read and put up historical numbers, made defenders miss after the catch, but there's plenty out there that suggest the had to be "schemed open"...he, just like Vernon, are expendable for what their contract demands are/were. We're talking Antonio Brown, DeAndre Hopkins, AJ Green money...for Landry.


It is your opinion that they were expendable. When you consider who they got and replaced Vernon and Landry with, it is also your opinion that the replacements were suitable. As you showed statistically, the replacements do not measure up. The ceiling may not be “dollar for dollar” that much higher in terms of production. But in order to get higher production, even a little bit, it costs more money. Pick your best players, commit to them early, then you don’t overpay backups starter money.


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:20 pm 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 386
In when you say the Giants “fell for it” you’re talking about
Jerry Reese, who was a real GM that built teams and won super bowls


Top
   
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:31 pm 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 386
Project86JLL13 wrote:
ggippo wrote:
It’s contradicting because you are justifying that players should be overpaid. Just different players.


Where in any of my posts am I doing this? Most of the replacement players you mentioned are getting the going rate.

My response are based off of your original assessment:

ggippo wrote:
It’s like a sick joke now. You replace Vernon with Branch, Clay with ???, Matthews with Stills. They either pay twice as much for similar production or half the price for half the production. Just awful, horrid.


None of these comparisons that you made come close to being paid twice as much for similar production, or even half the price for half the production. I've even laid it out for you statistically with contract details.

In fact, of the Six 4-3 DE with an average/year salary between Quinn and Branch last year (Jordan, Bennett, Curry, Wake, Hughes, Crawford) only 3 exceeded Branch's season of 4.5 sacks (Jordan 13, Bennett 8.5, Wake 10.5...oh, each more than Vernon), and yes, all 6 participated in 16 games. If you ask me, the salary that both Quinn and Branch are getting is going rate, not over paid, and is justifiable if Miami is focusing on a defense that is predicated on getting to the QB. The only unjustifiable part would have been resigning any of the guys you mentioned for what they wanted and what they got at that specific time....

and again, who's to say that Gase wanted those players to begin with?


Going rate in free agency is overpaid. You prefer “going rate” replacements, good teams secure a core of “going rate” pro bowlers. If they are lucky to draft them, they resign them at the “going rate”. I understand you prefer them to pay more for less on a second tier production level at the 8 to 12 million range. Good teams pay 5 or 6 players at top tier production in the 10 to 19 million dollar range, excluding QB, and then pay everyone else


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:24 am 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 386
One last point. How many players had 4 or more sacks last year that made less than 2 million? The dollar for dollar argument goes both ways. You have players that perform at high levels and those that don’t. You want a team full of overpaid role players that descimate your depth, or a core of 5 highly paid proven performers with enough money to spread around accordingly? I would urge you to take a look at the best rosters and see the salary distribution. Occasionally you overpay the wrong players but there are too many on this roster.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:41 am 
Offline
User avatar
VIP Donor!
VIP Donor!

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 3:56 pm
Posts: 6865
ggippo wrote:
Project86JLL13 wrote:
ggippo wrote:
It’s contradicting because you are justifying that players should be overpaid. Just different players.


Where in any of my posts am I doing this? Most of the replacement players you mentioned are getting the going rate.

My response are based off of your original assessment:

ggippo wrote:
It’s like a sick joke now. You replace Vernon with Branch, Clay with ???, Matthews with Stills. They either pay twice as much for similar production or half the price for half the production. Just awful, horrid.


None of these comparisons that you made come close to being paid twice as much for similar production, or even half the price for half the production. I've even laid it out for you statistically with contract details.

In fact, of the Six 4-3 DE with an average/year salary between Quinn and Branch last year (Jordan, Bennett, Curry, Wake, Hughes, Crawford) only 3 exceeded Branch's season of 4.5 sacks (Jordan 13, Bennett 8.5, Wake 10.5...oh, each more than Vernon), and yes, all 6 participated in 16 games. If you ask me, the salary that both Quinn and Branch are getting is going rate, not over paid, and is justifiable if Miami is focusing on a defense that is predicated on getting to the QB. The only unjustifiable part would have been resigning any of the guys you mentioned for what they wanted and what they got at that specific time....

and again, who's to say that Gase wanted those players to begin with?


Going rate in free agency is overpaid. You prefer “going rate” replacements, good teams secure a core of “going rate” pro bowlers. If they are lucky to draft them, they resign them at the “going rate”. I understand you prefer them to pay more for less on a second tier production level at the 8 to 12 million range. Good teams pay 5 or 6 players at top tier production in the 10 to 19 million dollar range, excluding QB, and then pay everyone else

It's just happening too much... And with all the losing going on. Obviously it's the wrong direction to go.


Top
   
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:01 pm 
Offline
Phinfever All Pro
Phinfever All Pro

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:30 pm
Posts: 386
The worst part is the dolphins are stuck with the awful contracts that Branch and Alonzo got because of the guaranteed money. What are they gonna give Quinn aproaching 30?


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ] 

All times are UTC-05:00


Phinfever Home Page

Phinfever Chatroom

Phinfever FAQ


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ag_fin_90, PossumHollow and 30 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited | Chopped and modified by Coots | Original design by Prosk8r