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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:13 pm 
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http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/ ... -jake-long


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:51 pm 
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jammer wrote:
http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/27893/parcells-does-not-regret-drafting-jake-long



He kicks himself for not taking the money and running a year earlier, he could have been a paid consultant last year instead of doing it for free...

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:24 pm 
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I'd take Matt Ryan over Jake Long any day of the week.... twice on Sundays.

Do you know what kind of success he 'would' have had? Or what he would have been able to do with the talent that was here? None of us can say so....

But I know this, in my personal opinion, this being hindsight ... I'd rather take my shot with Matt Ryan leading this team.

I like Jake, don't get me wrong... but if we're talking if's and but's and maybe's..... I'm going Ryan.

I think Ryan is becoming, or is already, a person you can build a quality team around... Long is a LT. Sure they have their role, but you don't build a franchise on LT's.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:50 pm 
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Coots wrote:
I think Ryan is becoming, or is already, a person you can build a quality team around... Long is a LT. Sure they have their role, but you don't build a franchise on LT's.


That right there is the bottom line.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:56 pm 
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If "ifs and "buts" were candy and nuts we would all have a Merry Christmas.

Water under the bridge. History. Time to move on. We don't get a re-draft. Something tells me if we could go back in our Phinfever time machine we would have an all star cast.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:07 pm 
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Now that we have a top left tackle after years of bemoaning the lack of success at the position, it's interesting to see people downplaying the importance of the position.

Nevermind the fact that they are generally the second highest paid position on the team after the quarterback, are commonly picked in the top 5 picks of the draft (3 left tackles picked within the top 5 picks the past 5 years), protect the blindside of the quarterback (if he is right handed, which most are).

No doubt QBs are usually the most important position on a team, but left tackles are not far behind.

It's easy in hindsight to say woulda, shoulda, coulda.

But IF we had drafted Ryan and he didn't pan out in Miami, no one would be saying "Man if Atlanta had drafted this guy, he would be a rising star there".

Fans always think the grass is greener elsewhere.

The fact is that Miami was a team bereft of talent going into the 2008 draft after a decade of terrible personnel moves. They hit on the most important pick of that draft after years of trading away first round picks or drafting busts.

I think you have to factor in the fact that Ryan, who doesn't possess the strongest arm, is playing in a dome and has an offense around him with superior talent at running back, tight end (a young QB's best friend) and offensive line (a young QB's second best friend). The only position Miami compares to Atlanta is wide receiver and even then, they have a guy who can stretch the field. Miami doesn't (PR, I told you Marshall wasn't a deep threat a couple of years ago and you ridiculed me for it).

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:12 pm 
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Dolfanrar wrote:
If "ifs and "buts" were candy and nuts we would all have a Merry Christmas.

Water under the bridge. History. Time to move on. We don't get a re-draft. Something tells me if we could go back in our Phinfever time machine we would have an all star cast.
:hithead:

Amen. It does get tiring to constantly hear all the bemoaning over players we 'should've' picked in the past. As if every other team in the NFL has hit on every draft pick they have ever had. Yes I know we could have had Drew Brees, Frank Gore, Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers, ect ,ect ect. However we didn't and that is water under the bridge now.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:19 pm 
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Phins Rock wrote:
Coots wrote:
I think Ryan is becoming, or is already, a person you can build a quality team around... Long is a LT. Sure they have their role, but you don't build a franchise on LT's.


That right there is the bottom line.


I'm sorry, but so many teams try to build around an exceptionally talented QB with a top 5 pick and a terrible team, and that guy gets killed and ends up a failure.

Parcells made the right move at the time. If you want to argue he could have traded both 2nd rounders to move up and take Flacco then fine. Even then, I'm not sure that would change much as he is another guy with a great team around him.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:28 pm 
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jammer wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
Coots wrote:
I think Ryan is becoming, or is already, a person you can build a quality team around... Long is a LT. Sure they have their role, but you don't build a franchise on LT's.


That right there is the bottom line.


I'm sorry, but so many teams try to build around an exceptionally talented QB with a top 5 pick and a terrible team, and that guy gets killed and ends up a failure.

Parcells made the right move at the time. If you want to argue he could have traded both 2nd rounders to move up and take Flacco then fine. Even then, I'm not sure that would change much as he is another guy with a great team around him.


David Carr, Joey Harrington, etc. come to mind. You definitely don't want to kill your young QB.

But your assuming that Sparano would have felt enough pressure to start him day 1 even if the situation was terrible (which it wasn't).

That said, it's A LOT more than just a LT that "protects" your young QB. You can't build a team thinking, "let's build a great team around the QB position, and then when our roster is ready we'll go get one in the draft to stick in there". You only get a certain amount of opportunities to draft Matt Ryan's and Aaron Rodger's. You can't waste them.

That's why I get frustrated with the school of thought that Carolina should pass up Gabbert even if they like him because their roster isn't ready to handle a young QB. That's BS. You sit him if you have to, and build your team while he's learning from the bench. But you don't pass him up because you can't play him from day 1.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:59 pm 
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The situation wasn't terrible?

The Wildcat would have worked as well without Jake Long and instead Sam Baker or the equivalent whom you say does nothing for Ryan?

Every argument for Ryan is assumption. This thread and its support are bunk. The title itself is incorrect. We can go back to 2001 and say why didn't we take Brees...and quite frankly he might not be the same guy today had he been drafted by Miami.

We have Henne. We may have Mallet/Ponder/whomever...lets talk reality, not what ifs from the past.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:37 pm 
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jammer wrote:
The situation wasn't terrible?

The Wildcat would have worked as well without Jake Long and instead Sam Baker or the equivalent whom you say does nothing for Ryan?

Every argument for Ryan is assumption. This thread and its support are bunk. The title itself is incorrect. We can go back to 2001 and say why didn't we take Brees...and quite frankly he might not be the same guy today had he been drafted by Miami.

We have Henne. We may have Mallet/Ponder/whomever...lets talk reality, not what ifs from the past.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:00 pm 
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jammer wrote:
The situation wasn't terrible?

The Wildcat would have worked as well without Jake Long and instead Sam Baker or the equivalent whom you say does nothing for Ryan?

Every argument for Ryan is assumption. This thread and its support are bunk. The title itself is incorrect. We can go back to 2001 and say why didn't we take Brees...and quite frankly he might not be the same guy today had he been drafted by Miami.

We have Henne. We may have Mallet/Ponder/whomever...lets talk reality, not what ifs from the past.


Then sit Ryan until you have a good roster around him. My point is just that you're not forced to put your rookie QB into a terrible situation (unless of course you have injuries). That's not a reason to pass somebody up.

That said, I'm pretty tired of arguing something that none of us are going to change our stance on. Lol. I'll defend Matt whenever it comes up, but I'm in agreement with your last sentence. Let's save our breath for reality.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:30 am 
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Phins Rock wrote:
... Again, too much credit is given to talent around the QB position and how that translates into a QB's success.


Can you say "TRENT DILFER"? (I knew you could!)

TRENT DILFER had the RAVENS, and was a mediocrity as a QB, and has a SB ring. DAN MARINO didn't, wasn't, and doesn't. Your above-statement is idiotic.

Football is, was and always will be a team game. I'll go even farther: it also matters BIGTIME who your Coaches and Team Staff are. MIAMI had an antiquated OC, whose idea of a great offensive scheme was a passing attack best described as "PENNY's POPGUN PARADE" grafted onto "3 Yards and a cloud of dust". It was designed for a "cork-armed", but highly accurate and intelligent veteran QB...then force-fed to a young, strong-armed QB who could hit even a fast fool like GINN w/a 70 Yard "rope" for a TD on a deep post, and hit a slower possession receiver like BESS w/a 45 yard TD over tight coverage. So, after that, did MIAMI adjust its style coming into 2010? OF COURSE...NOT! Same crap, different year! All w/the approval of the equally yesteryear-minded VP In Charge Of Football Operations (a friend of his), and a HC who saw the problem but was too timid to speak up/do something about it!!!

I, myself, believe that HENNE has more than enough talent to be a very solid NFL QB. But not if he's put on a leash and made to wear diapers, and be too afraid to go for it! And not if he's forced to run "PENNY's POPGUN PARADE": that shoe just doesn't fit. IF HENNE's forced to go down THAT road again, then if I were him, AS SOON AS I BECAME A F/A, I'd shop myself around to the rest of the League, and tell MIAMI to go to Hell and stay there--that they won't be allowed to ruin my career any further. And I wouldn't even entertain any offers from MIAMI. I would tell my Agent "If you dare to do so, then in the words of D TRUMP, "you're fired". HENNE should protect HIMSELF: no one else will!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:32 am 
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This is all just off season talk here. Nobody is ripping the Long pick but it would be nice to think if we had picked Ryan we would have had the turn around that the Falcons have had. Nobody knows for sure , with the Dolphins luck , had he come here he might have turned out to be Ryan leaf , who knows.
The real story here in my opinion is despite the success of year 1 how the Parcells magic & mystique quite honestly failed here & all of our "In Tuna we trust" signatures were just camoflauge for the fact that in reality after playing over our heads & with the way the schedule worked out for us in that year 1 , the last 2 seasons in a Parcells regime were very disapointing no matter how we as Dolphin fans we try to sugar cote it.
Maybe real strides in a positive direction will be taken the season after this once Ireland & Sparano are gone.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:14 am 
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LUDUPORCU wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
... Again, too much credit is given to talent around the QB position and how that translates into a QB's success.


Can you say "TRENT DILFER"? (I knew you could!)

TRENT DILFER had the RAVENS, and was a mediocrity as a QB, and has a SB ring. DAN MARINO didn't, wasn't, and doesn't. Your above-statement is idiotic.

Football is, was and always will be a team game. I'll go even farther: it also matters BIGTIME who your Coaches and Team Staff are. MIAMI had an antiquated OC, whose idea of a great offensive scheme was a passing attack best described as "PENNY's POPGUN PARADE" grafted onto "3 Yards and a cloud of dust". It was designed for a "cork-armed", but highly accurate and intelligent veteran QB...then force-fed to a young, strong-armed QB who could hit even a fast fool like GINN w/a 70 Yard "rope" for a TD on a deep post, and hit a slower possession receiver like BESS w/a 45 yard TD over tight coverage. So, after that, did MIAMI adjust its style coming into 2010? OF COURSE...NOT! Same crap, different year! All w/the approval of the equally yesteryear-minded VP In Charge Of Football Operations (a friend of his), and a HC who saw the problem but was too timid to speak up/do something about it!!!

I, myself, believe that HENNE has more than enough talent to be a very solid NFL QB. But not if he's put on a leash and made to wear diapers, and be too afraid to go for it! And not if he's forced to run "PENNY's POPGUN PARADE": that shoe just doesn't fit. IF HENNE's forced to go down THAT road again, then if I were him, AS SOON AS I BECAME A F/A, I'd shop myself around to the rest of the League, and tell MIAMI to go to Hell and stay there--that they won't be allowed to ruin my career any further. And I wouldn't even entertain any offers from MIAMI. I would tell my Agent "If you dare to do so, then in the words of D TRUMP, "you're fired". HENNE should protect HIMSELF: no one else will!

I said a QB's success. Not the team's success.

Although good job finding the 2 extreme exceptions in league history. :yay:


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:28 am 
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LUDUPORCU wrote:
Can you say "TRENT DILFER"? (I knew you could!)

TRENT DILFER had the RAVENS, and was a mediocrity as a QB, and has a SB ring. DAN MARINO didn't, wasn't, and doesn't. Your above-statement is idiotic.


Didn't bother to read the rest after you summoned Trent Dilfer.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:32 am 
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Phins Rock wrote:
Although good job finding the 2 extreme exceptions in league history.


Here are two more "extremes".

Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostetler.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:37 am 
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Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
Although good job finding the 2 extreme exceptions in league history.


Here are two more "extremes".

Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostetler.


Brad Johnson threw for 22 TDs to 6 INTs the year they won it all. That is Troy Aikman type stats. He's also in the top 30 all time in QB rating.

Hostetler ended up beating out Phil Simms for his job, and who knows what would have happened had it not been for the injury.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:34 am 
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When Johnson was in Tampa, he was nothing more than a caretaker QB. Early in his career, he was a top QB, but late in his career, particularly in Tampa, he was a caretaker.

And Hostetler didn't beat out Simms during the Superbowl season. Simms broke his foot. The next season a new head coach gave Hoss a chance to compete and he won the starting job, and then proceeded to have a mediocre career as a starter with the Giants and Raiders.

These two guys were players that were starting for a different team every couple of years.

Far from the qualification of a franchise QB.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:38 pm 
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You know if we never took Marino in 83 then trying to fill his shoes for the last 15 years wouldn't be so hard...

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:49 pm 
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Hmmm .....

2000 Trent Dilfer
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... lfTr00.htm

2002 Brad Johnson
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... hnBr00.htm

Talk about a disparity in statistics. Brad practically doubled every single one of Trent's. Calling Brad a caretaker (like that of the 2000 Super Bowl winning Dilfer) is naive.

EDIT: Nevermind about Hostetler.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:17 am 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
Calling Brad a caretaker (like that of the 2000 Super Bowl winning Dilfer) is naive.


Looking at stats alone to make an argument is both ignorant and naive. Stats can be manipulated to mean whatever you want them to.

Johnson was being asked to make throws when needed. The Bucs relied heavily on their defense and their running game with Mike Alstott and Michael Pittman to gain tough yards and control the clock. Their passing game was a safe one, with a lot of possession receivers running and catching short routes.

I know... I don't need to rely on stats. I actually followed the team and saw what they relied on to get where they got that season... and quarterback was not the most important facet of that team.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:29 am 
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If Brad Johnson can win it with that type of year I'm pretty hopeful that an above average QB surrounded by a talented cast can take Miami where it needs to go.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:15 pm 
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Rich wrote:
Looking at stats alone to make an argument is both ignorant and naive. Stats can be manipulated to mean whatever you want them to.

Johnson was being asked to make throws when needed. The Bucs relied heavily on their defense and their running game with Mike Alstott and Michael Pittman to gain tough yards and control the clock. Their passing game was a safe one, with a lot of possession receivers running and catching short routes.

I know... I don't need to rely on stats. I actually followed the team and saw what they relied on to get where they got that season... and quarterback was not the most important facet of that team.


I watch more football than you ever give me credit for Rich. You're not the only guy on this forum who watches something other than his own football team.

The comparison was being made between Johnson and Dilfer when it's just not a fair assessment at all. Dilfer was not called upon (nor allowed) to take chances. The stats reflect this Grand Canyon of a difference in how the two QB's ran the offenses. You mean to tell me they "manipulated" Johnson into putting up twice the offensive efficiency? Do tell how they did that. Gruden's offense was also a West Coast offense aka "Nickel and Dime" football. The output reflects that. Now their strength undeniably was their running game, due to personnel .... but that does not reflect badly on Johnson. He had crap to throw to. Yet, the passing attempts (451) still outweighed the rushing attempts (378).

I never called Johnson the most important function of the team. However again, you basically called him Dilfer.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:32 pm 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
The comparison was being made between Johnson and Dilfer when it's just not a fair assessment at all.


I wasn't comparing Johnson to Dilfer, I was using Johnson as an example of a caretaker QB who won a Superbowl.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:14 pm 
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PR:

That as intellectually dishonest a reading of a quote I have seen in a while.

Good job.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:53 pm 
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Bill Parcells' recent statement that he may have missed the mark by not taking quarterback Matt Ryan in 2008 (when Parcells was the Dolphins' vice president of football operations) confirms the "safe pick" theory isn't really all that safe.

The safe pick that year was left tackle Jake Long, and he has lived up to all his pre-NFL billing. He has been to three Pro Bowls. He has never missed a start. He's a great leader on the field and in the locker room. In a normal situation, Parcells should be proud.

But to survive in the NFL decision-making business these days, playing it safe only works if the team has a great quarterback. With 59 percent of last season's plays leaguewide designed for the pass, a great quarterback can cover for any hole on a team. A tackle, a defensive end, a wide receiver or any other position can't do that.

On the surface, things couldn't have worked out any better for Parcells and the Dolphins. He drafted his Pro Bowl left tackle and was lucky enough to find a strong-armed quarterback (Chad Henne) available with the 57th pick in the second round. Defensive end Phillip Merling was there for Parcells with the first pick in the second round, so Parcells left the draft feeling he had filled three key positions.

But taking the safe pick at the top of the 2008 draft still has the Dolphins looking for that elite quarterback. The Falcons have made two trips to the playoffs in the past three years with Ryan at the helm, and Ryan has the aura of a quarterback who will get a chance at a couple of Super Bowl rings.

You always hear analysts discussing the safe-pick concept of a team -- particularly those teams toward the top of the draft. The problem with drafting in the top five or top seven is that one first-round pick isn't good enough to turn a franchise around -- unless he's a quarterback.

The Seahawks thought they made a safe pick in 2009 when they took linebacker Aaron Curry with the fourth pick overall. Curry has had only 5½ sacks in two seasons and hasn't dominated. The St. Louis Rams thought they were going the safe route by making defensive end Chris Long the second pick in 2008 and offensive tackle Jason Smith the second pick in 2009. Drafting safe got them to 1-15 in 2009 and the chance to get the first pick in 2010.

With the selection of quarterback Sam Bradford, the Rams jumped to 7-9 and should be a playoff contender for the next several years. Had they drafted safe and taken defensive tackle Ndamukong Suh, the 2010 defensive rookie of the year, the Rams might have not done better than 4-12 with their current talent base.

A safe defensive tackle can't turn around a team as much as a top young quarterback.

The tough part about the 2011 draft is there aren't a lot of safe picks. Cornerback Patrick Peterson might be the safest, but no cornerback has been taken No. 1. Da'Quan Bowers might be the best defensive end, but long-term worries about an injured knee could drop him out of the top 10. Defensive end Robert Quinn looks solid, but it's hard to overlook the brain tumor he had in high school and a suspension that kept him away from the football field for 18 months in college.

And clearly there is no safe pick in this year's quarterback class. Cam Newton was a one-year phenom at Auburn, but how long will it take for him to convert those raw skills into efficiently running an NFL offense? Blaine Gabbert threw 267 shotgun passes in Big 12 play last season but didn't take a snap under center and completed only 44 percent of his passes on third downs. With Jake Locker, you worry about accuracy. Ryan Mallett worries teams because of his personality.

The scariest part of this draft is it's loaded at defensive end. Believe it or not, defensive end has been the least-safe position to draft since 2007. The only Pro Bowl defensive end taken in the first round of the past four drafts is Brian Orakpo of the Redskins -- and he's now a linebacker in a 3-4 defense.

Of the 16 other defensive ends taken since 2007, Vernon Gholston, Lawrence Jackson, Kentwan Balmer, the late Gaines Adams, Adam Carriker and Jarvis Moss are no longer with the teams that drafted them. Derrick Harvey, Jamaal Anderson and Aaron Maybin have been labeled disappointments. Tyson Jackson is off to a slow start in Kansas City, and injuries ruined the first years of Brandon Graham, Derrick Morgan and Jared Odrick.

Only Long can claim some form of success in the defensive end group.

Offensive linemen, on the other hand, have been very safe investments. Of the 27 offensive linemen taken in the first round since 2006, 26 are full-time starters and those 26 have started 85.8 percent of the games. The only true failure is Andre Smith of the Bengals, who has started only five of 32 games.

What helps the success rate of offensive tackles is flexibility. Struggling tackles can be moved inside and teams can salvage productivity. Chris Williams struggled at both tackle spots, but at least he's starting at guard for the Chicago Bears. The Raiders salvaged Robert Gallery's career by moving him to guard.

Parcells might have drafted the best tackle since Joe Thomas went to the Cleveland Browns at No. 3 in 2007, but safe still left the Dolphins wanting at quarterback. Safe just isn't safe these days.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2011 ... id=6343941

Great article by Clayton.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:18 pm 
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but safe still left the Dolphins wanting at quarterback. Safe just isn't safe these days.


Why do most continue to assume Henne is dead in the water.

He was no worse than Mark Sanchez or Eli Manning yet both of those guys have the backing of their teams and have won games because of their teams.

Henne has had to play with inconsistency in the running game/receiving game and only one year with a good defense and the half-ass trust of his coaching staff.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:20 pm 
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Iowafin wrote:
Quote:
but safe still left the Dolphins wanting at quarterback. Safe just isn't safe these days.


Why do most continue to assume Henne is dead in the water.

He was no worse than Mark Sanchez or Eli Manning yet both of those guys have the backing of their teams and have won games because of their teams.

Henne has had to play with inconsistency in the running game/receiving game and only one year with a good defense and the half-ass trust of his coaching staff.


Eli threw for 4000 yards and 31 TDs....

Eli has won a Super Bowl. Even if he was as bad as Henne last season, he's already established himself over the course of many successful seasons. One bad year isn't going to break his career.


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Phins Rock wrote:
Iowafin wrote:
Quote:
but safe still left the Dolphins wanting at quarterback. Safe just isn't safe these days.


Why do most continue to assume Henne is dead in the water.

He was no worse than Mark Sanchez or Eli Manning yet both of those guys have the backing of their teams and have won games because of their teams.

Henne has had to play with inconsistency in the running game/receiving game and only one year with a good defense and the half-ass trust of his coaching staff.


Eli threw for 4000 yards and 31 TDs....

Eli has won a Super Bowl. Even if he was as bad as Henne last season, he's already established himself over the course of many successful seasons. One bad year isn't going to break his career.


Again...point over your head.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:24 pm 
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Phins Rock wrote:
Eli threw for 4000 yards and 31 TDs....

Eli has won a Super Bowl. Even if he was as bad as Henne last season, he's already established himself over the course of many successful seasons. One bad year isn't going to break his career.


PR, the point is Eli is not an elite QB yet he won a Super Bowl when surrounded with good talent. Its possible Henne can do that and have this team competing consistently. A chance with a better overall offense is all people are asking for.

You can continue to pull up articles to counter supporters of Henne, but the funny thing is that the guy you used is one of the bigger national Henne advocates. Clayton has said numerous times that Henne deserves a shot and can still be a good QB in this league. Even your homeboy Matt Ryan crumbled a bit with some adversity in his sophmore season of starting.

Lets see Henne with a stronger o-line, good ground game and an offense where the handcuffs are off. If he succeeds you'll change your tune. If he doesn't then the day after the season you can start a post to move up and draft a big name QB in 2012.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:32 pm 
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At this point in time (& things can change) while Eli Manning is not an elite QB he is certainly in that next tier & head & shoulders above Henne. While being a Dolphin fan you can easily get jaded by Henne just like we did Green , Culpepper & Feeley all you have to judge is the past & once again right now the past says Henne leaves more questions than answers. You can also bring up all the non elite QB's who have won super bowls & the make up of the teams they had at that time & this Dolphin team with Henne judging from the past is not there as well.
I hope last season was a bump rather than a long term situation as far as Henne is concerned , but I am not one to pin it all on a coordinator , situations or circumstances , accountability rests with the players.
Back on topic however , if Henne fails then the whole Parcells era fails.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:00 am 
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I love these threads...largely because I grew up playing baseball and football, and didn't grow up playing football, so all the position-by-position nuances and innuendo in this sport are foreign to me. My only knowledge in this regard comes from what I read in newspapers, magazines, and online and from what I see and hear on TV.

My question is this, "If you're coming off a 1-15 season where you really sucked, we're not talking maybe 4-12 if we got a few more bounces our way, we're talking 1-15 and earned every bit of that record, do you pick a QB, who in your 30-year professional opinion is a 50-50 bet as a future franchise quarterback, or do you pick an offensive tackle who is a 75-25 bet to be one of the top LTs in the game?"

I never played QB, but I don't see this is a "plug-and-play" position like say SS in baseball. There are a lot of circumstances that go into a QB being successful in the NFL as far as I can tell, and those circumstances are different from team to team.

In my opinion, coming out of 1-15, no one with the Dolphins wanted to pay $50M to a QB they had a good chance of ruining since they didn't have much else to back him up offensively or defensively. They took the more fincancially and developmentally prudent stance of paying $50M for a LT everyone thought would be a stud, who could block for whatever would come down the pike for the next few years.

Of course Parcells would take Ryan over Long now that someone else took on all the risk and capitalized on it, and developed a cornerstone franchise QB. How many people would take Tom Brady over their first 5 draft picks in the 2000 draft? All of them I would suppose.

A better question would be, "Does anyone have proof of the Falcons draft board in 2008, or can say definitively that the Falcons even had Ryan rated higher than Long and would have taken him No. 1 overall?"

I'm not positive they would have, but I don't have proof.

I'm a huge proponent of "Best Player Available" drafting regardless of need. I think that's the only way you develop a "Best Team Possible."


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:10 am 
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jammer wrote:
FINesse wrote:
One way or the other after this season there will be no more questions when it comes to him.


What happens if Henne puts up relatively the same stats but has 19 TDs and 11 Ints with Miami making the playoffs? I think that makes it even worse because now you have a guy who has met expectation but not necessarily exceeded them. Are you content with a winning squad or do you want more?

I think Henne can be better than he showed last year but it may take a few years for him to play at a borderline elite level. Does the team want to wait that long or are they happy with a younger version of Pennington?


Maybe we can all start to realize that Henne might not ever be good enough to be an elite quarterback? Maybe we all can realize that even if Henne puts up mediocre numbers and struggles at times he can still lead us to the playoffs and win big games?
Here are a few examples that prove the Dolphins can go far even if Henne puts up mediocre or poor numbers:
1 - Mark Sanchez has helped the Jets make the AFC Championship game two times despite having a 70.2 combined quarterback rating over the two seasons.
2 - Eli Manning won a Super Bowl with a 73.9 quarterback rating.
3 - Rex Grossman went to a Super Bowl with a 73.9 quarterback rating. His career rating is only 70.9.
4 - Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl throwing for a whopping 1,500 yards, 12 touchdowns, and 11 interceptions. His career quarterback rating is 70.2.
5 - Jake Delhomme took Carolina to a Super Bowl while racking up a dismal 19 touchdowns (1 rushing td) with 16 interceptions and 8 fumbles. Thats 24 turnovers to 20 touchdowns on the season.

The one thing each of these teams had was a great defense and a solid ground game. So if Miami can continue to beef up its defense and rebuild the rushing game there is no reason Henne can't take us to the playoffs and maybe win a few games when we get there this year.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:04 am 
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jammer wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
Eli threw for 4000 yards and 31 TDs....

Eli has won a Super Bowl. Even if he was as bad as Henne last season, he's already established himself over the course of many successful seasons. One bad year isn't going to break his career.


PR, the point is Eli is not an elite QB yet he won a Super Bowl when surrounded with good talent. Its possible Henne can do that and have this team competing consistently. A chance with a better overall offense is all people are asking for.

You can continue to pull up articles to counter supporters of Henne, but the funny thing is that the guy you used is one of the bigger national Henne advocates. Clayton has said numerous times that Henne deserves a shot and can still be a good QB in this league. Even your homeboy Matt Ryan crumbled a bit with some adversity in his sophmore season of starting.

Lets see Henne with a stronger o-line, good ground game and an offense where the handcuffs are off. If he succeeds you'll change your tune. If he doesn't then the day after the season you can start a post to move up and draft a big name QB in 2012.


But Eli doesn't have his team competing consistently. That's the thing. His team made 1 incredible run, but that's a once in a decade type of thing. In order to stay in contention year in and year out you have to have an elite QB.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:04 am 
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Phins Rock wrote:
jammer wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
Eli threw for 4000 yards and 31 TDs....

Eli has won a Super Bowl. Even if he was as bad as Henne last season, he's already established himself over the course of many successful seasons. One bad year isn't going to break his career.


PR, the point is Eli is not an elite QB yet he won a Super Bowl when surrounded with good talent. Its possible Henne can do that and have this team competing consistently. A chance with a better overall offense is all people are asking for.

You can continue to pull up articles to counter supporters of Henne, but the funny thing is that the guy you used is one of the bigger national Henne advocates. Clayton has said numerous times that Henne deserves a shot and can still be a good QB in this league. Even your homeboy Matt Ryan crumbled a bit with some adversity in his sophmore season of starting.

Lets see Henne with a stronger o-line, good ground game and an offense where the handcuffs are off. If he succeeds you'll change your tune. If he doesn't then the day after the season you can start a post to move up and draft a big name QB in 2012.


But Eli doesn't have his team competing consistently. That's the thing. His team made 1 incredible run, but that's a once in a decade type of thing. In order to stay in contention year in and year out you have to have an elite QB.


See the above post, point number 1. You don't have to stop exploring for an upgrade at any position, but you can maintain a successful franchise and make the playoffs. I believe Manning has captained more than one playoff team. The Jets rolled with Chad Pennington for over half a decade with some moderate success. Constantly starting over at QB keeps Miami in the toilet. You can make whatever assessments you want, but you can't guarantee Henne will fail or even peak at mediocre any more than I can't prove he'll be top 10.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:22 pm 
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Let us not forget that the braintrust before the Big Tuna decided to draft a speedy kick returned instead of the next franchise QB - Brady Quinn. Ginn is a kick returner on the west coast and Quinn is a back-up who has struggled when he has found playing time.

All of this is pure speculation. Would Quinn have made a bigger splash in Miami? Would he have looked better in teal than in brown? Would QB have been a question if he was in the fold. All of this builds on itself.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:39 pm 
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Rusjen wrote:
Let us not forget that the braintrust before the Big Tuna decided to draft a speedy kick returned instead of the next franchise QB - Brady Quinn. Ginn is a kick returner on the west coast and Quinn is a back-up who has struggled when he has found playing time.

All of this is pure speculation. Would Quinn have made a bigger splash in Miami? Would he have looked better in teal than in brown? Would QB have been a question if he was in the fold. All of this builds on itself.


I don't think I've seen any of your posts before...but this post was fantastic.

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