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 Biblical plagues really happened say scientists 
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Post Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Events in the Bible are always found to be factual. The "miracles", well, since they cannot be reproduced scientifically are ignored. Here, they are admitting the Plagues of Egypt actually did happen but they are giving a scientific explanation ... throwing away the fact that Moses said they would happen, then the plagues immediately did, and things went back to normal at Moses' word.

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Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
By Richard Gray, Science Correspondent
Published: 11:00AM GMT 27 Mar 2010

The Biblical plagues that devastated Ancient Egypt in the Old Testament were the result of global warming and a volcanic eruption, scientists have claimed.

Researchers believe they have found evidence of real natural disasters on which the ten plagues of Egypt, which led to Moses freeing the Israelites from slavery in the Book of Exodus in the Bible, were based.

But rather than explaining them as the wrathful act of a vengeful God, the scientists claim the plagues can be attributed to a chain of natural phenomena triggered by changes in the climate and environmental disasters that happened hundreds of miles away.

They have compiled compelling evidence that offers new explanations for the Biblical plagues, which will be outlined in a new series to be broadcast on the National Geographical Channel on Easter Sunday.

Archaeologists now widely believe the plagues occurred at an ancient city of Pi-Rameses on the Nile Delta, which was the capital of Egypt during the reign of Pharaoh Rameses the Second, who ruled between 1279BC and 1213BC.

The city appears to have been abandoned around 3,000 years ago and scientists claim the plagues could offer an explanation.

Climatologists studying the ancient climate at the time have discovered a dramatic shift in the climate in the area occurred towards the end of Rameses the Second's reign.

By studying stalagmites in Egyptian caves they have been able to rebuild a record of the weather patterns using traces of radioactive elements contained within the rock.

They found that Rameses reign coincided with a warm, wet climate, but then the climate switched to a dry period.

Professor Augusto Magini, a paleoclimatologist at Heidelberg University's institute for environmental physics, said: "Pharaoh Rameses II reigned during a very favourable climatic period.

"There was plenty of rain and his country flourished. However, this wet period only lasted a few decades. After Rameses' reign, the climate curve goes sharply downwards.

"There is a dry period which would certainly have had serious consequences."

The scientists believe this switch in the climate was the trigger for the first of the plagues.

The rising temperatures could have caused the river Nile to dry up, turning the fast flowing river that was Egypt's lifeline into a slow moving and muddy watercourse.

These conditions would have been perfect for the arrival of the first plague, which in the Bible is described as the Nile turning to blood.

Dr Stephan Pflugmacher, a biologist at the Leibniz Institute for Water Ecology and Inland Fisheries in Berlin, believes this description could have been the result of a toxic fresh water algae.

He said the bacterium, known as Burgundy Blood algae or Oscillatoria rubescens, is known to have existed 3,000 years ago and still causes similar effects today.

He said: "It multiplies massively in slow-moving warm waters with high levels of nutrition. And as it dies, it stains the water red."

The scientists also claim the arrival of this algae set in motion the events that led to the second, third and forth plagues – frogs, lice and flies.

Frogs development from tadpoles into fully formed adults is governed by hormones that can speed up their development in times of stress.

The arrival of the toxic algae would have triggered such a transformation and forced the frogs to leave the water where they lived.

But as the frogs died, it would have meant that mosquitoes, flies and other insects would have flourished without the predators to keep their numbers under control.

This, according to the scientists, could have led in turn to the fifth and sixth plagues – diseased livestock and boils

Professor Werner Kloas, a biologist at the Leibniz Institute, said: "We know insects often carry diseases like malaria, so the next step in the chain reaction is the outbreak of epidemics, causing the human population to fall ill."

Another major natural disaster more than 400 miles away is now also thought to be responsible for triggering the seventh, eighth and ninth plagues that bring hail, locusts and darkness to Egypt.

One of the biggest volcanic eruptions in human history occurred when Thera, a volcano that was part of the Mediterranean islands of Santorini, just north of Crete, exploded around 3,500 year ago, spewing billions of tons of volcanic ash into the atmosphere.

Nadine von Blohm, from the Institute for Atmospheric Physics in Germany, has been conducting experiments on how hailstorms form and believes that the volcanic ash could have clashed with thunderstorms above Egypt to produce dramatic hail storms.

Dr Siro Trevisanato, a Canadian biologist who has written a book about the plagues, said the locusts could also be explained by the volcanic fall out from the ash.

He said: "The ash fall out caused weather anomalies, which translates into higher precipitations, higher humidity. And that's exactly what fosters the presence of the locusts."

The volcanic ash could also have blocked out the sunlight causing the stories of a plague of darkness.

Scientists have found pumice, stone made from cooled volcanic lava, during excavations of Egyptian ruins despite there not being any volcanoes in Egypt.

Analysis of the rock shows that it came from the Santorini volcano, providing physical evidence that the ash fallout from the eruption at Santorini reached Egyptian shores.

The cause of the final plague, the death of the first borns of Egypt, has been suggested as being caused by a fungus that may have poisoned the grain supplies, of which male first born would have had first pickings and so been first to fall victim.

But Dr Robert Miller, associate professor of the Old Testament, from the Catholic University of America, said: "I'm reluctant to come up with natural causes for all of the plagues.

The problem with the naturalistic explanations, is that they lose the whole point.

"And the whole point was that you didn't come out of Egypt by natural causes, you came out by the hand of God."

The Ten Plagues of the Bible will be shown at 7pm on Sunday 4 April on the National Geographic Channel




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scie ... tists.html

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
To me, the only thing in the Bible that did not follow the natural laws of nature was Jesus' resurection and conception. I think most things, if not all things, can be explained in a scientific manner.

Why would God create the laws of science, only to ignore them? I think He uses them to perform his miracles.


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Phins Rock wrote:
To me, the only thing in the Bible that did not follow the natural laws of nature was Jesus' resurection and conception. I think most things, if not all things, can be explained in a scientific manner.

Why would God create the laws of science, only to ignore them? I think He uses them to perform his miracles.


So when Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave it followed the natural laws of science? Or a touch of the hand and cured leprosy? Or the parting of the Red Sea by Moses? Or the creation of woman with a man's rib bone?
The list goes on...please think before you speak.

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Iowafin wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
To me, the only thing in the Bible that did not follow the natural laws of nature was Jesus' resurection and conception. I think most things, if not all things, can be explained in a scientific manner.

Why would God create the laws of science, only to ignore them? I think He uses them to perform his miracles.


So when Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave it followed the natural laws of science? Or a touch of the hand and cured leprosy? Or the parting of the Red Sea by Moses? Or the creation of woman with a man's rib bone?
The list goes on...please think before you speak.


You're right about a lot of jesus' miracle. I don't take any of the Old Testament literally though.


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Phins Rock wrote:
You're right about a lot of jesus' miracle. I don't take any of the Old Testament literally though.



That is too bad.
Luke 24:13-27

"13Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16but they were kept from recognizing him.
17He asked them, "What are you discussing together as you walk along?"

They stood still, their faces downcast. 18One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, "Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?"

19"What things?" he asked.

"About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23but didn't find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see."

25He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself."


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
I've always thought that Science and Religion could co-exist. And even be used to support one another in certain circumstances. I do believe that the Bible is very vague on certain happenings and not everything should be taken literally. Angels and Demons was a very interesting book. The movie, not so much.

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
I am not sure exactly what is meant by literally (when Chirst says he is the door of His sheep, I understand that imagery is being used and that He is not a literal door made out of wood etc... and that humans and not sheep are the objects He is the door too) but I do believe the Bible when it relates events that contradict science.

Have not read Angels and Demons.


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
It takes faith to believe. If you don't believe because you place more value in science, then your no more intelligent than someone who places more value in the Bible. Both take a degree of faith to believe in. Science continually changes, knowledge is gained, old theories replaced by new. The Bible has told the same story for thousands of years. Say what you like, but there is something to be said for that.


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Phins Rock wrote:
To me, the only thing in the Bible that did not follow the natural laws of nature was Jesus' resurection and conception. I think most things, if not all things, can be explained in a scientific manner.

Why would God create the laws of science, only to ignore them? I think He uses them to perform his miracles.


So a woman being formed from a man's rib can be explained scientifically?

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Phin wrote:
If you don't believe because you place more value in science, then your no more intelligent than someone who places more value in the Bible. Both take a degree of faith to believe in.


That is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

With science, you have something tangible, measureable, viewable.

With religion, it's something someone said a long time ago and has been passed down over the centuries...

The New Testament was written by a bunch of people who never actually saw Jesus.

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
To me, the only thing in the Bible that did not follow the natural laws of nature was Jesus' resurection and conception. I think most things, if not all things, can be explained in a scientific manner.

Why would God create the laws of science, only to ignore them? I think He uses them to perform his miracles.


So a woman being formed from a man's rib can be explained scientifically?


I don't think the Old Testament is to be taken literally.


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Rich wrote:
Phin wrote:
If you don't believe because you place more value in science, then your no more intelligent than someone who places more value in the Bible. Both take a degree of faith to believe in.


That is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

With science, you have something tangible, measureable, viewable.

Science is constantly revising itself. Not all scientific facts, but many.

Quote:
With religion, it's something someone said a long time ago and has been passed down over the centuries...

The New Testament was written by a bunch of people who never actually saw Jesus.

The Bible has proven to be a very credible document over the centuries. Some may try to pick holes in it, that's their prerogative, but it has proved time and again to be historically reliable.

Again, simply choosing to ignore the Bible doesn't make you more intelligent then someone who believes in it. You may not agree, but that is your personal belief, not a fact.


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Phins Rock wrote:
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
To me, the only thing in the Bible that did not follow the natural laws of nature was Jesus' resurection and conception. I think most things, if not all things, can be explained in a scientific manner.

Why would God create the laws of science, only to ignore them? I think He uses them to perform his miracles.


So a woman being formed from a man's rib can be explained scientifically?


I don't think the Old Testament is to be taken literally.


So Revelations is? Should we really be expecting multi-headed demons and dudes on horses ravaging the planet?

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Phin wrote:
Science is constantly revising itself. Not all scientific facts, but many.


Which scientific FACT has been revised? Don't confuse theories with facts.

Science espouses many theories, and makes it clear that they are indeed theories.

Religion will have you believe something that doesn't even hold a candle up to a theory as fact.

Quote:
The Bible has proven to be a very credible document over the centuries. Some may try to pick holes in it, that's their prerogative, but it has proved time and again to be historically reliable.


There are certain historical events recorded in the Bible, but there are plenty of events that no one can prove ever happened.

Quote:
Again, simply choosing to ignore the Bible doesn't make you more intelligent then someone who believes in it. You may not agree, but that is your personal belief, not a fact.


You're twisting what you originally said.

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Rich wrote:
So Revelations is? Should we really be expecting multi-headed demons and dudes on horses ravaging the planet?


Didn't say it was. Just saying that I don't think the Old Testament is not to be taken literally.

John's book is a bit out there compared to the others of the New Testament.


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Phins Rock wrote:
Didn't say it was. Just saying that I don't think the Old Testament is not to be taken literally.


Well it seems you are picking and choosing your arguments to your convenience. Typical approach for religionists.

Quote:
John's book is a bit out there compared to the others of the New Testament.


If you came into this world without a religious upbringing and picked up the Bible, you might think the entire thing is "out there".

Read the Qu'ran and tell me you don't think it's out there. But those who grew up under that tradition view it as perfectly normal.

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
I'm not a "religionist". Don't go to Church, talk about any of this stuff with my parents or anything and don't pay attention in my spiritual theology class lol.

I don't see how I was picking and chosing? I said I don't think the Old Testament is to be taken literally, and you said that I was somehow implying the hole New Testament was??

Quote:
Read the Qu'ran and tell me you don't think it's out there. But those who grew up under that tradition view it as perfectly normal.


Of course. It's the same with everything. We eat clams up here in the North east. In France snails are a delicacy. In Asia who knows what they eat....And if we saw each other eating these things we'd probably dry heave.
Heck, I've been brought up to believe that Bobby Orr was the greatest hockey player of all time. Anybody outside of Boston would see that as silly.

But anyway what I meant by out there was that it was not as factual and to the point, so to speak, as the other gospels. Just a different writing style with a slightly different purpose for writing. That's all I was saying there.


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Phins Rock wrote:
I said I don't think the Old Testament is to be taken literally, and you said that I was somehow implying the hole New Testament was??


Then why only pick the Old Testament? Why not just say the Bible?

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
I said I don't think the Old Testament is to be taken literally, and you said that I was somehow implying the hole New Testament was??


Then why only pick the Old Testament? Why not just say the Bible?

Because you brought up a story from the Old Testament.

I do think that most of the New Testament is factual. Just the Old Testament I think is more of a moral code rather than a historical timeline.


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Rich wrote:
If you came into this world without a religious upbringing and picked up the Bible, you might think the entire thing is "out there".


We all come into the world without religion. I grew up and up until the age of 16 knew nothing of Jesus. I picked up a bible and started attending church and it was a good feeling. I've read some of the Q'uran and some of scientology's beliefs and they don't stick with me.
Am I biased? I'm not sure that I am. To argue against religion because it's not scientific in the literal sense I understand. But to say none of it happened or what have you because "we can't prove it" is a terrible argument (not saying that you are). There are a lot of unprovable things that we take for granted as fact.

Science takes faith, and religion takes faith. A slippery slope has us questioning a lot, so as long as you're treating others with respect and doing your part, there is no wrong answer.

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Iowafin wrote:
I grew up and up until the age of 16 knew nothing of Jesus.


In the United States... and Iowa in particular?

Highly unlikely. The vast majority of people in this country grow up accepting Christianity as the norm, even if they are not active participants.

You're not catching on to the point of my comment.

Iowafin wrote:
Science takes faith


Absolutely, completely and totally incorrect.

Science relies on scrutiny and removes the requirement of faith. Again, this is why there are THEORIES. All true scientists and people who understand science accept that THEORIES like the THEORY of Evolution can be disproven by new evidence.

A scientist thinks "I may be wrong, but...." when putting forth a theory. That is the underlying, unwritten, unspoken concept of a theory.

And please exclude the global warming wackos, who are more like religionists than scientists, from that group.

Where does an Evangelical or a Muslim who is hardcore, loyal to the cause, have room to believe that their FAITH can be disproven?

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Last edited by Rich on Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:01 am, edited 2 times in total.



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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Phins Rock wrote:
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
I said I don't think the Old Testament is to be taken literally, and you said that I was somehow implying the hole New Testament was??


Then why only pick the Old Testament? Why not just say the Bible?

Because you brought up a story from the Old Testament.

I do think that most of the New Testament is factual. Just the Old Testament I think is more of a moral code rather than a historical timeline.


I brought up a story from the BIBLE. Make up your mind. Now the Old Testament isn't factual but the New Testament is?

So again, should we expect multi-headed demons and dudes on horses to plague this world since only the Old Testament isn't factual?

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Rich wrote:
I brought up a story from the BIBLE. Make up your mind. Now the Old Testament isn't factual but the New Testament is?


Lol. That's what I've been trying to say, yes. The Old testament was based off of the "guidence of God" while the New Testament are stories that actually happened, (most).

Quote:
So again, should we expect multi-headed demons and dudes on horses to plague this world since only the Old Testament isn't factual?

Phins Rock wrote:
I do think that most of the New Testament is factual.


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Iowa, I agree. In the end, it does not matter whether you are Christian, Hindu, Muslim or whatever. If you have a loving heart and treat people with respect and want to get to Heaven, you will.


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Rich wrote:
Iowafin wrote:
I grew up and up until the age of 16 knew nothing of Jesus.


In the United States... and Iowa in particular?

Highly unlikely. The vast majority of people in this country grow up accepting Christianity as the norm, even if they are not active participants.

You're not catching on to the point of my comment.

Iowafin wrote:
Science takes faith


Absolutely, completely and totally incorrect.

Science relies on scrutiny and removes the requirement of faith. Again, this is why there are THEORIES. All true scientists and people who understand science accept that THEORIES like the THEORY of Evolution can be disproven by new evidence.

A scientist thinks "I may be wrong, but...." when putting forth a theory. That is the underlying, unwritten, unspoken concept of a theory.

And please exclude the global warming wackos, who are more like religionists than scientists, from that group.

Where does an Evangelical or a Muslim who is hardcore, loyal to the cause, have room to believe that their FAITH can be disproven?

Rich, believe it or not, but America is now the third largest unchurched population in the world. We also are the fastest growing unchurched population in the world. Christianity in China is growing at faster rate than just about anywhere. When I worked in the juvenile correction center I would talk to kids about Christ. I would bring up stories from the bible like Moses, Jonah, Noah, and even Christ and kids would tell me they had no knowledge of many of those people or their story. I had kids that really had no idea who Christ even was. So to answer your disbelief, yes it is entirely possible to grow up in this country and have little or no knowledge of Christianity; especially if you grew up in another religion or a home where religion was forbidden.

Why is the theory of evolution taught in schools as fact? I know what a theory is but my experience in both highschool and college was that it was presented as being the only possible explanation for life; most aspects were treated as fact. Why can't intelligent design be taught as a 'theory' in schools? If evolution is truly a theory, then any theory on the origins of life should be open for discussion in the schools.
A good show to watch regarding that subject is Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. It highlights the ridiculously hypocritical nature of the science community in the United States.
We have 'scientists' out there stating that intelligent design is for loonies and whack jobs while proposing theories as being credible such as the first cellular organism being created when lightening struck a crystal. Your telling me it doesn't take a leap of faith to believe in that? We can teach that crap in school but we can't discuss an intelligent designer? Gimme a break!


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Iowafin wrote:
Science takes faith


I stand with Rich on this. That statement alone means you have no idea of what science is.

Here is a definition for you of the scientific method:

Quote:
A process that is the basis for scientific inquiry. The scientific method follows a series of steps: (1) identify a problem you would like to solve, (2) formulate a hypothesis, (3) test the hypothesis, (4) collect and analyze the data, (5) make conclusions.


You need to have observable, testable and repeatable results. It doesn't take faith. It takes an ability to look at the data and accept what it is telling you.

That is counter to religion, which requires you to believe what you are told, regardless of any proof or believability.

I'll take science any day!


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Phins Rock wrote:
Iowa, I agree. In the end, it does not matter whether you are Christian, Hindu, Muslim or whatever. If you have a loving heart and treat people with respect and want to get to Heaven, you will.


Actually, the Bible doesn't say that at all. Back in Genesis, God tells people to look forward to the Savior that will save them, and in the New Testament God tells us that the saviour is Jesus.

Why Jesus? Throughout the Old Testament people sacrificed a "perfect" sacrifice which was payment for their sin (which was a substitute for Christ until that day). The Bible says that Jesus was sinless which is why he is the only sacrifice for our sins. Also, Jesus was God in the flesh.

Bible wrote:
7 Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. (John 10)


Mohammed, Budda, etc ... are all dead. Jesus paid for our sins and rose from the dead to show us that He conquered death.


So, the Bible teaches that there is only one way to heaven and that is through Jesus.

Quote:
(Acts 16:30-31 NIV) "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Well, I didn't mean to kill the thread;)

What I am basically saying is that if a person claims to be a Christian, then you cannot say there are many roads to heaven as the Bible clearly states that the road goes through Jesus Christ only. What you are saying is that the blood of Christ is not needed and that the sacrifice He made for you and me was not needed as we can work our way to heaven with good works. That would be as if I made an omelet out of 5 good eggs but I threw a rotten egg into the mix. No matter how many good eggs are thrown into the mix, there isn't any amount of money in the world that would make any of us eat it.

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
How can God punish you for following what you truly believe in your heart?

Doesn't make sense to me.


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Phins Rock wrote:
How can God punish you for following what you truly believe in your heart?

Doesn't make sense to me.

Just because someone believes something, doesn't make it true. My kid may believe that he can fly, but gravity is going to show him he can't.
Another question is why do we tend to judge God by our own logic? I mean, if he truly is everything Christian's claim that he is, wouldn't that mean that his knowledge and power is beyond anything we can fathom? If that is the case, how does an ant judge a polar bear?


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Phin wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
How can God punish you for following what you truly believe in your heart?

Doesn't make sense to me.

Just because someone believes something, doesn't make it true. My kid may believe that he can fly, but gravity is going to show him he can't.
Another question is why do we tend to judge God by our own logic? I mean, if he truly is everything Christian's claim that he is, wouldn't that mean that his knowledge and power is beyond anything we can fathom? If that is the case, how does an ant judge a polar bear?


This isn't a matter of physics. It's a deep intellectual question we all search the answer for. And if we feel like we've reached it in Judaism, or Islam, and live that out to the best of our ability, living a good life, how can God keep us from Heaven?

Plus, isn't it choosing God after death once you have seen the Truth?


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Phins Rock wrote:
Plus, isn't it choosing God after death once you have seen the Truth?


Purgatory?

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Big Dave wrote:
Well, I didn't mean to kill the thread;)

What I am basically saying is that if a person claims to be a Christian, then you cannot say there are many roads to heaven as the Bible clearly states that the road goes through Jesus Christ only. What you are saying is that the blood of Christ is not needed and that the sacrifice He made for you and me was not needed as we can work our way to heaven with good works. That would be as if I made an omelet out of 5 good eggs but I threw a rotten egg into the mix. No matter how many good eggs are thrown into the mix, there isn't any amount of money in the world that would make any of us eat it.


Always comes back to the "Even Gandhi's in hell" discussion, doesn't it?

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Iowafin wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
Plus, isn't it choosing God after death once you have seen the Truth?


Purgatory?


Once you die, Christians believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that you see the face of God, and you can accept or deny him. If you accept him then you go to either Heaven or Purgatory.


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
The Bottlenose wrote:
Big Dave wrote:
Well, I didn't mean to kill the thread;)

What I am basically saying is that if a person claims to be a Christian, then you cannot say there are many roads to heaven as the Bible clearly states that the road goes through Jesus Christ only. What you are saying is that the blood of Christ is not needed and that the sacrifice He made for you and me was not needed as we can work our way to heaven with good works. That would be as if I made an omelet out of 5 good eggs but I threw a rotten egg into the mix. No matter how many good eggs are thrown into the mix, there isn't any amount of money in the world that would make any of us eat it.


Always comes back to the "Even Gandhi's in hell" discussion, doesn't it?


No, it is not my place to say whether Gandhi is in hell, God will judge that. Those who have never heard the gospel will be judged by their own conscience.

Quote:
11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.


Romans 2:11-16

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Phins Rock wrote:
Iowafin wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
Plus, isn't it choosing God after death once you have seen the Truth?


Purgatory?


Once you die, Christians believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that you see the face of God, and you can accept or deny him. If you accept him then you go to either Heaven or Purgatory.


JP, I've never heard of that and I know it isn't in the Bible. Maybe it is a Catholic teaching. All I know is that the Bible teaches that a person has until their last breath to accept Christ. After that we no longer have the choice of accepting God's free gift of forgiveness.

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Sorry. It's a Catholic teaching than.


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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
Big Dave wrote:
Events in the Bible are always found to be factual. The "miracles", well, since they cannot be reproduced scientifically are ignored. Here, they are admitting the Plagues of Egypt actually did happen but they are giving a scientific explanation ... throwing away the fact that Moses said they would happen, then the plagues immediately did, and things went back to normal at Moses' word.


"Throwing away the fact that Moses said they would happen"?

Big Dave, where is that a fact? Should scientists actually report that Moses said the plagues would happen? You do realize that they wouldn't be conducting science at that point, right?

I'll put it in print right now. My friend Mickey told me UCONN would win the NCAA tournament. Looking back, did UCONN win it all? Sure did. But does that make it a FACT that Mickey said so?

The event doesn't prove the prediction, my man.

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
The Bottlenose wrote:
Big Dave, where is that a fact? Should scientists actually report that Moses said the plagues would happen? You do realize that they wouldn't be conducting science at that point, right?

I'll put it in print right now. My friend Mickey told me UCONN would win the NCAA tournament. Looking back, did UCONN win it all? Sure did. But does that make it a FACT that Mickey said so?

The event doesn't prove the prediction, my man.


If your buddy predicted the winner over several years before the season began correctly I would put some huge coin down on his next prediction and live like a fat rat, BN;) Anyways, the Bible is full of 100% successful predictions written before many events happened. People like to consider Nostradamus a prophet, and grant it that he made some incredible predictions that came true, a large number of them did not.

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Post Re: Biblical plagues really happened say scientists
[/quote] If your buddy predicted the winner over several years before the season began correctly I would put some huge coin down on his next prediction and live like a fat rat, BN;) Anyways, the Bible is full of 100% successful predictions written before many events happened. People like to consider Nostradamus a prophet, and grant it that he made some incredible predictions that came true, a large number of them did not.[/quote]

Take Jack van Impe to Vegas!

If a dude shows me a piece of paper from 1943 that says "Wyoming will win the National Championship this year because their players were circumcised", I'm still taking his word for it that he wrote that before the fact. Is that a prediction? Or is it more likely that Wyoming won the National Title in 1943, and this reason was then applied to it so as to promote circumcision?

I'm just saying, the plagues happened in the 1200s B.C. The oldest scriptures are thought to be from the 1200s B.C. Interpreting those holy books as PREDICTION, rather than EXPLANATION, is an act of faith, not science. I guarantee you there was a real flood too. Now, did Noah gather two of every animal in the world, even the millions of species that were clear on the other side of the world geographically? Now that would have been a hell of a trick (and everyone knows that snow leopards and lemurs are bitter enemies). But the story of Noah applies meaning and lessons to actual events.

And I respect your faith, Big Dave. I truly do. But in my opinion, the Bible as a Nostradaumus-style collection of predictions is a stretch. Does that make it less meaningful to Jews/Christians? It shouldn't.

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