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 Smith and Hartline to hit free agency 
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
phinsfansc wrote:
StereoMike wrote:
$6M/year for Hartline is just speculations, unless I hear it from his mouth. I'm sure we can have him back for $4M/year.

Forget what Jordy Nelson is earning, he should fire his agent, he is underpaid.



I'm fine with Hartline back at 4 mill/per year. As far a Jordy Nelson being underpaid, he probably is, but it is what it is.


Nelson showed a lack of durability this year. That should be a consideration when the dude thinks he is underpaid.

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Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:59 pm
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
TheCarver13 wrote:
Some of you think it is as simple as "lets just sign a Bowe, Jennings, or Wallace." First, all 3 of those players may not even be available.They could get resigned to their own teams or possibly franchised tagged. Second, there will definitely be plenty of teams looking to sign those players as well. We are not the only team in need of their talents. Third, Jeff Ireland already has a bad rep and the Dolphins team is not a playoff team right now and those players will be looking to play for contenders. Money does talk, but it is not always everything in these negotiations.

Sign Hartline, sign Smith, and sign Bush. Keep the little talent that you do have.


:yay: Someone else gets it!

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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
FrustratedFinFan wrote:
TheCarver13 wrote:
Some of you think it is as simple as "lets just sign a Bowe, Jennings, or Wallace." First, all 3 of those players may not even be available.They could get resigned to their own teams or possibly franchised tagged. Second, there will definitely be plenty of teams looking to sign those players as well. We are not the only team in need of their talents. Third, Jeff Ireland already has a bad rep and the Dolphins team is not a playoff team right now and those players will be looking to play for contenders. Money does talk, but it is not always everything in these negotiations.

Sign Hartline, sign Smith, and sign Bush. Keep the little talent that you do have.


:yay: Someone else gets it!


I disagree. Overpay for a bunch of mediocre players and you ensure the team
Never moves past mediocrity.

And people wonder why our cap situation hasn't been that great for the past few years


Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:22 pm
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
this is proof positive that ireland's draft picks turn out to be average, to above average players.
So he can pretend that his guys are studs and pay them top dollar or he can face the truth and cut bait and sign proven stars.


Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:48 pm
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
Because 4th round picks are usually superstars?


Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:08 pm
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
TheCarver13 wrote:
Some of you think it is as simple as "lets just sign a Bowe, Jennings, or Wallace." First, all 3 of those players may not even be available.They could get resigned to their own teams or possibly franchised tagged. Second, there will definitely be plenty of teams looking to sign those players as well. We are not the only team in need of their talents. Third, Jeff Ireland already has a bad rep and the Dolphins team is not a playoff team right now and those players will be looking to play for contenders. Money does talk, but it is not always everything in these negotiations.

Sign Hartline, sign Smith, and sign Bush. Keep the little talent that you do have.


Its already been reported by several people that Jennings will hit the market. Would he come to Miami? Who knows, but money talks in free agency and Miami can outgun just about everyone if they want one player bad enough. The only guys who take hometown discounts or less money to go to contenders are declining vets and border line decent talents.

Show me a situation where a guy went to free agency and turned down top dollars from a team that was a few wins away from the playoffs. Miami isn't the Jacksonville Jaguars. Jake Long would sign with the miserable Chargers tomorrow if they offered him the 10 million per year contract he's seeking rather than take 5 million per year to play for the Pats.

If Miami is such a bad team and Ireland is such a jerk then why would Hartline and Smith re-sign? It works both ways.


Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:33 pm
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
jammer wrote:
TheCarver13 wrote:
Some of you think it is as simple as "lets just sign a Bowe, Jennings, or Wallace." First, all 3 of those players may not even be available.They could get resigned to their own teams or possibly franchised tagged. Second, there will definitely be plenty of teams looking to sign those players as well. We are not the only team in need of their talents. Third, Jeff Ireland already has a bad rep and the Dolphins team is not a playoff team right now and those players will be looking to play for contenders. Money does talk, but it is not always everything in these negotiations.

Sign Hartline, sign Smith, and sign Bush. Keep the little talent that you do have.


Its already been reported by several people that Jennings will hit the market. Would he come to Miami? Who knows, but money talks in free agency and Miami can outgun just about everyone if they want one player bad enough. The only guys who take hometown discounts or less money to go to contenders are declining vets and border line decent talents.

Show me a situation where a guy went to free agency and turned down top dollars from a team that was a few wins away from the playoffs. Miami isn't the Jacksonville Jaguars. Jake Long would sign with the miserable Chargers tomorrow if they offered him the 10 million per year contract he's seeking rather than take 5 million per year to play for the Pats.

If Miami is such a bad team and Ireland is such a jerk then why would Hartline and Smith re-sign? It works both ways.


To me the premise of the original post is that this is not the "mecca" of NFL franchises that we think it is. To that I agree. Sure we can outbid anyone but it still goes back to what I said in an earlier post. You draft a guy or sign a free agent to address a need but until they play awhile you do not know if you filled a need. Some of the bigger named free agent guys we have signed IMO barely filled the need & were not the players they were when they were with their previous team. That is why resigning guys is not a bad idea as well.

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Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:33 am
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
StereoMike wrote:
I blame the "system"...


So it's the system's fault that Hartline dropped a few catchable touchdowns this season?

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Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:47 am
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
StereoMike wrote:
You have to look at the whole picture.


Ok, let's look at the whole picture.

How many games did Brian Hartline have 50 or less yards this season?

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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
jammer wrote:
The system has nothing to do with it. He didn't score TDs under Henning, Daboll or Sherman. He's a good possession receiver who gets open in the middle of the field but he doesn't produce YAC and doesn't beat corners for big time catches. He dropped probably the same amount of TD passes as those overthrown by his QB (which happened to include 3 different QBs). You can't throw up lob passes to him and you better have Tom Brady throwing him the deep ball because he gets behind defenders maybe a couple times per game and the QB needs to be spot on. Even Matt Moore who had the best deep ball of any QB I can remember in a Miami uniform since 2000, had trouble connecting with him.

If Hartline is a "pretty good #2" then a WR needy team should have no problem paying him 6 million per year. That is about half of what very good #1's (Marshall, Jackson) are making.


I'm sorry but Hartline did a fine job of beating secondaries all year long. If Tannehill puts some touch on those deep balls we're easily looking at a 5 or 6 touchdown year for Hartline. Not his fault the QB couldn't get him the ball when he was wide open.


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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
FINesse wrote:
To me the premise of the original post is that this is not the "mecca" of NFL franchises that we think it is. To that I agree. Sure we can outbid anyone but it still goes back to what I said in an earlier post. You draft a guy or sign a free agent to address a need but until they play awhile you do not know if you filled a need. Some of the bigger named free agent guys we have signed IMO barely filled the need & were not the players they were when they were with their previous team. That is why resigning guys is not a bad idea as well.


Sorry, my reply got messed up so I'm redoing this.

Yes, his reply makes sense for someone arguing to sign every free agent at every position like its Madden football.

Miami has a specific situation to address at recever and the money to do it. Greg Jennings and Mike Wallace are upgrades over Brian Hartline no matter how you want to slice it.

You don't overpay for your own talent if you don't have to. Hartline thrives when alpha receivers distract defenders and allow him to work the middle. He does not have that in Miami and is not worth 6 million per year.


Last edited by jammer on Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:20 am
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
IamPZ wrote:
I'm sorry but Hartline did a fine job of beating secondaries all year long.


Especially against the Rams, when he couldn't get open and had 0 catches for 0 yards.

Quote:
If Tannehill puts some touch on those deep balls we're easily looking at a 5 or 6 touchdown year for Hartline.


This only happened in ONE GAME where Tannehill slightly overthrew Hartline on one pass and underthrew him on another. Let's not rewrite history to make it sound like Tannehille was constantly missing Hartline deep because that is not the case.

Hartline had a few drops in the endzone that were very catchable balls, including a slant where the ball hit him right in the gut and he dropped it and two other drops in the endzone.

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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
Rich beat me to the punch.

Hartline dropped a few red zone passes, not easy ones, but ones he should have had, and was overthrown a few times.

I want Hartline back, I think he is a very good possession guy. But the more I've thought about it the past month the more I realize he doesn't really show up in the clutch or make gamebreaking plays. Until Miami has alpha guys they can't overpay for a complimentary guy who might be replaceable through the draft.


Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:28 am
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
His stats are aided by one monster game.....Hartline is a good guy and a good football player.
The kind you want on your team...

Parcells always called guys like that a JAG.

No need to overspend on...Should be a situation where you get a chance to match other offers and take it from there.


Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:16 am
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
Kev1321 wrote:
His stats are aided by one monster game.....Hartline is a good guy and a good football player.
The kind you want on your team...

Parcells always called guys like that a JAG.

No need to overspend on...Should be a situation where you get a chance to match other offers and take it from there.


23% of his total yardage for the season came in one game (Arizona).

43% of his total yardage came in three games (Arizona, Oakland, Indy).

He also had 8 games with 50 yards or less.

The point is Hartline is a nice player, I like him, I want us to keep him. But he is still very inconsistent from week to week and he struggles against good corners.

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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
I think you're all crazy to let Hartline walk.. I have no problem paying him 4-5 million a year to be a 2nd string wideout.. How do you let Tannehill's favorite target walk.. Sure he had some bad games but that's because teams started game planning around him.. With a Jennings or Wallace on the team and a serviceable o-line I think this offense can really open up.. I feel like too many of you are becoming okay with letting this team stay mediocre! We're ALWAYS rebuilding! We've been rebuilding for over a decade, this is insane.. It's time to grow a pair and pay up for the good of your team.. Money can't buy chemistry

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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
So what is Hartlines value in FA?

Could it be possible for us to offer fair market value and not be beat out in FA offers?

I mean if stats prove he is not worth that kind of money it should be easy for another team to not pay just like us correct?

Just wondering what the options are.. Because right now I seem to feel we need 2 more, without Hartline we need 3 WR's that will make impacts this year. I have not seem anything that makes me believe that is possible with this regime..

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Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:31 pm
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
BlameItonTheHenne wrote:
I think you're all crazy to let Hartline walk


Who said to let him walk?

I think the consensus is we're all happy to keep him if his contract is in the $4 million range.

The speculation is he will ask for much more than that.

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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
10acjed wrote:
So what is Hartlines value in FA?

Could it be possible for us to offer fair market value and not be beat out in FA offers?

I mean if stats prove he is not worth that kind of money it should be easy for another team to not pay just like us correct?

Just wondering what the options are.. Because right now I seem to feel we need 2 more, without Hartline we need 3 WR's that will make impacts this year. I have not seem anything that makes me believe that is possible with this regime..


Teams that have established receiving weapons and money to spend can overpay for Hartline's services to be the reliable target when their top guys require double coverage. Its great for them because they don't have to pay top dollar for Bowe or Wallace but still get a good WR.

Miami needs more than good, they need a guy who defenses will fear. I think they have to overpay for a couple of serious playmakers and hope that they draft the next Hartline.


Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:53 pm
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
I still think Hartline is too valuable to not end up resigning. Same as Reggie Bush. I would hate for the Patriots to sign any of those 2 players. Don't get me wrong either, I know we have to go after one of the big name WRs that may become available, but I think we have enough money to resign Hartline and go after a premier WR.

As far as Smith goes, he hasn't been amazing but he has shown the ability to cover some of the best WRs in the league. His size and speed for that position is rare. But I wouldn't be mad if Smith didn't get resigned because out of the big name free agents on the Dolphins, he is the one that deserves the least amount of money on the Dolphins in my mind. He is the player that I would least overspend on, but I still hope we can get him back at a fair price. Which I believe we will when he realizes that teams aren't going to give him top dollar.

Going off subject, this is why I think we need to draft a CB in the first round. I know WR is probably our biggest need but if we can handle that in free agency, then I would draft a CB in the 1st and 2nd round. That is the biggest weakness on our defense and you cannot beat the Patriots and other elite teams without good CBs. The free agent class for CBs also wont be all that great.


Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:33 pm
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
jammer wrote:
Miami needs more than good, they need a guy who defenses will fear. I think they have to overpay for a couple of serious playmakers and hope that they draft the next Hartline.


I agree with you, I just do not have that kind of faith in us finding suitable replacements at that position.

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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
The Patriots have no money....They need to resign a 12 million dollar OT
And a 12 million dollar wr. W/ draft picks. With about 14 million.

Woodhead is free Talib is free.etc.


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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
10acjed wrote:
jammer wrote:
Miami needs more than good, they need a guy who defenses will fear. I think they have to overpay for a couple of serious playmakers and hope that they draft the next Hartline.


I agree with you, I just do not have that kind of faith in us finding suitable replacements at that position.


I'm just basing this off of what I've read and the speculation of cost, but I think the best Miami can get is sign Jennings, re-sign Hartline for 4 million per year and either land Terrence Williams at 42 or jump up in Rd 2 to get him. Playmaker, possession target and deep threat without paying 20+ million per year to fit the needs.

I don't think that is an unrealistic scernario.


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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
jammer wrote:
I'm just basing this off of what I've read and the speculation of cost, but I think the best Miami can get is sign Jennings, re-sign Hartline for 4 million per year and either land Terrence Williams at 42 or jump up in Rd 2 to get him. Playmaker, possession target and deep threat without paying 20+ million per year to fit the needs.

I don't think that is an unrealistic scernario.


Sounds great to me.

My problem with letting a guy like Hartline go is not that I feel he is some great talent, I think he was very much under rated prior to this season, but not to the point of him being a 1k yard WR.
I just do not like the idea of drafting a guy in round 4, then developing him over a few years and when he has a breakout season let him go to FA over a mil or so a year..

Sounds like we are a NFL farm team lol...

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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
10acjed wrote:
jammer wrote:
Miami needs more than good, they need a guy who defenses will fear. I think they have to overpay for a couple of serious playmakers and hope that they draft the next Hartline.


I agree with you, I just do not have that kind of faith in us finding suitable replacements at that position.


Especially since we'll be building through the draft we have to keep some sort of veteran presence in place.


Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:00 pm
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
10acjed wrote:
jammer wrote:
Miami needs more than good, they need a guy who defenses will fear. I think they have to overpay for a couple of serious playmakers and hope that they draft the next Hartline.


I agree with you, I just do not have that kind of faith in us finding suitable replacements at that position.


Then what does it matter? We're going to suck regardless so why bother?

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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
Rich wrote:
10acjed wrote:
jammer wrote:
Miami needs more than good, they need a guy who defenses will fear. I think they have to overpay for a couple of serious playmakers and hope that they draft the next Hartline.


I agree with you, I just do not have that kind of faith in us finding suitable replacements at that position.


Then what does it matter? We're going to suck regardless so why bother?


Well I was just expressing my opinion on the topic.

But we could just make sarcastic comments back and forth if you would prefer, have to say if there is one thing I enjoy its being a smart ass...

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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
10acjed wrote:
But we could just make sarcastic comments back and forth


I didn't make a sarcastic comment. I'm just wondering what your point is. You don't really seem to have one other than to keep posting.

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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
Rich wrote:
10acjed wrote:
But we could just make sarcastic comments back and forth


I didn't make a sarcastic comment. I'm just wondering what your point is. You don't really seem to have one other than to keep posting.


I was actually on a web forum to engage in discussion with other people. So I thought I was just sharing opinions with jammer regarding Hartline.

That is when you decided to make a sarcastic comment.

Sorry if my lack of faith in our teams ability to find decent WR's upset you, but if you saw something last season to contradict my feelings by all means share it. Because I remember a turnstile of WR's being shuffled in and out all year.

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Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:26 am
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
10acjed wrote:
That is when you decided to make a sarcastic comment.


I guess the part where I said I wasn't being sarcastic flew right over your head.

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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
I'd like to keep a lot of these players too, and for reasonable money, but that just doesn't happen. And lets face it guys, it's not like our current squad is 'getting it done'. They may be standouts on our team, but in the NFL, they are pedestrian. Long had a solid start to his career, but unless he can come back healthy, his best days are FAR behind him. Reggie can be an explosive player on the right team, but there is a reason, beyond just money, that the Saints let him walk too. Hartline is a solid #2 receiver yards wise, but for touchdowns, he is well below the average. He is also nearly worthless in the redzone. I'd love to have him back, but not if it means 5-6mil a year. Smith, probably one of the most overhyped players we've had in recent years. He is way too inconsistent and cannot seem to hang onto the interceptions. He is another guy we might just have to bid adeu to. These guys are all very replaceable, but for the sake of not creating a bigger hole that we can fill, we may have to resign one or two of them. My vote would be on Hartline (for less than 5mil), and Long (for less than 9mil).


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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
Rich wrote:
10acjed wrote:
That is when you decided to make a sarcastic comment.


I guess the part where I said I wasn't being sarcastic flew right over your head.


Ok then I will answer it in a reasonable manner..

Rich wrote:
Then what does it matter? We're going to suck regardless so why bother?


I did not say that we are going to suck regardless.

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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
There is a lot of BS floated at this time of year and teams are in no rush to re-sign guys, but sometimes its not hard to connect the dots. We've all read that Ireland is marrying himself to Philbin's vision. Philibin will want his players and Ireland positioned the team to have a ton of cap room and several picks. I wouldn't be surprised if another player was dealt for a pick once free agency begins.

They didn't have to gut the roster last year because so many guys were in contract years. They gave themselves a chance to see if they could produce a winner but probably understood that most of the building would be done this year via FA.

Just a side note, its been reported that Greg Jennings just put his home up for sale in GB.


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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
I enjoy its being a smart ass...

I'm with you, so much better than a dumb ass, right? lol


Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:44 am
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
For me, neither Hartline or Smith meet the Dolphin's long-term requirements for their respective positions. Two things we are missing from our receiving corps was as serious down-field threat and a big strong receiver to get off the line and battle for every ball. Like I said in a previous post, if Hartline were to return, I think he would be competing with Mathews for the No. 4 spot.

Philbin and Ireland have continually stated the need for play-makers on defense. Smith is a good cover corner, but he's no play-maker.

I agree with several of you, that it would be nice to have both these guys back in '13 especially as rookies and free agents are learning the system, but their value beyond next year would be minimal.


Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:14 pm
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
shularino wrote:
For me, neither Hartline or Smith meet the Dolphin's long-term requirements for their respective positions. Two things we are missing from our receiving corps was as serious down-field threat and a big strong receiver to get off the line and battle for every ball. Like I said in a previous post, if Hartline were to return, I think he would be competing with Mathews for the No. 4 spot.

Philbin and Ireland have continually stated the need for play-makers on defense. Smith is a good cover corner, but he's no play-maker.

I agree with several of you, that it would be nice to have both these guys back in '13 especially as rookies and free agents are learning the system, but their value beyond next year would be minimal.
I

I agree with you. I look at both players as "nice to have" but that's about all. I'm more concerned about Smith as I have little doubt how we will address WR but not as sure about the CB plans.

As I stated earlier, Smith is a good player but to pay a good player great money just means in the long term you can't afford to pay a great player great player money (not that we have that issue right now). Basically it is how you wind up with salary cap problems.


Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:51 pm
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
Phin wrote:
I'd like to keep a lot of these players too, and for reasonable money, but that just doesn't happen. And lets face it guys, it's not like our current squad is 'getting it done'.

That's why we need both players back, we need to find an upgrade first, and then get rid of them, not the other way around. Letting them walk and then hoping to hit a homerun in the draft is very risky.


Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:18 pm
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
Bring in a free agent and top pick WR. Draft another CB. Keep Hartline and Smith. There is plenty of room on the roster to churn.....Why let contributors walk? Sure, work for a good deal....but this team can't turn over its whole roster. Not enough picks and not enough money to do that. No, Smith isn't a great corner, but neither were any of the pack of guys we plugged in opposite him all season. Hartline might not be a top tier WR, but he is a viable #2 guy and would even see better numbers if there was actually a true #1 WR playing opposite him.

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Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:24 pm
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
StereoMike wrote:
Phin wrote:
I'd like to keep a lot of these players too, and for reasonable money, but that just doesn't happen. And lets face it guys, it's not like our current squad is 'getting it done'.

That's why we need both players back, we need to find an upgrade first, and then get rid of them, not the other way around. Letting them walk and then hoping to hit a homerun in the draft is very risky.


If you overpay for them and eat up cap space on players taking up money that is not commensurate with their performance, it makes it more difficult to replace them with upgrades or to address the bazillion other needs the team has. Additionally, even with these players on the roster, their position is still a need position, so what really is their value? Especially in the case of Sean Smith, who if you look at his performance metrics, outside of a couple of good games against Larry Fitzgerald and A.J. Green, was a mediocre cornerback.

Everyone has an appropriate value and if the Dolphins assign a value to them and they have to exceed that value to retain the player's services, then they are already putting themselves behind the 8-ball.

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Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:29 am
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Post Re: Smith and Hartline to hit free agency
It really does come down to the buisness side and what the overall plan in place is.
These guys want to build through the draft, and install a different offense than we have run. Therfore there are obvious personnel moves that need to be made. They are clearing the cap, stocking up on picks etc. In all appearances they are doing exactly what was planned.

In the long term picture it looks great, however long term in Miami is 3 years lately. So I certainly hope the people brought in to replace them are better than the ones we have seen so far.
We have nothing behind Fasano or Hartline at this point. Bush, Long, Smith I can see being replaced via draft, FA and others on the team. But to let the best players at their position just walk away is pretty risky, even if its justified by cap space. not like we are millions apart on this. PPL say 4 mil for Hartline, he wants 5 - 6 so we are realistically talking a 1 mil difference. Fasano is probably even less of a gap between what he wants and what we offer.

Could always trade or release them in the future, not like we are talking big gaps here. Incentive laden contracts, back loaded deals, signing bonuses etc can easily bridge the gap of 1 mil.... Could always package them into a draft day trade a year or two down the road etc...

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Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:13 am
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