If it was giving insight or information that teams didn't already have then every team would be using it. But they're not. Not even one in five uses it. And AGAIN, you cannot prove which teams, or what information is being used.

I've proven my point that this site is flawed and not perfect, and as such it should be scrutinized, especially when it comes to being used as a judge for players on our team. There is ZERO evidence that this site has all of the proper information to make a valid evaluation of player performance. It is some guy watching a game and speculating.

You need to change your arguement. Because you haven't give me one shred of evidence that shows where this site has the right information to properly evaluate the Miami Dolphins, or any team for that matter.

“Pro Football Focus is not only a tremendous site but its an invaluable tool in researching and learning more about the intricacies of the National Football League. On a weekly basis our staff at DEC Management use PFF for analytics and playing data of our clients. You get more than your moneys worth on a regular basis with Pro Football Focus.”
— David Canter - NFL Agent

“ProFootballFocus is our first-stop when we begin contract preparation for NFL veterans. The unique, common sense approach they take to statistical analysis and player comparisons is simply unmatched by any other service out there, and unless we literally break down every player, on every play as they do, the statistics they compile cannot be found elsewhere. In our 25 years representing NFL players, we have never come across a better source to truly determine player production and comparisons.”
— Paul Sheehy - President ProStar SportsAgency

“There's no better resource for analytical research than ProFootballFocus.com. The site provides information that forces you to think outside the box and helps you view the game through a different prism.”
— Manish Mehta - New York Daily News

“Numbers can lie. But PFF breaks the numbers down to paint the truth without bias. When I'm looking to enhance my game I go to PFF. It's the raw truth that numbers won't show you.”
— Lawrence Jackson - Detroit Lions DE

“In today's world of instant media and total NFL access it's easy to find every game you want to watch, but few can find the time to watch every player on every snap of every game. That's exactly what Pro Football Focus does, and the results of their work make for some fascinating reading.”
— Adam Schefter - ESPN's NFL Insider

“Pro Football Focus is my absolute favorite resource when doing the weekly Madden roster updates. They provide the reader with information in such a clear and concise way, it makes my job 10x easier. Nobody does it better than these guys. Nobody.”
— Donny Moore - EA Madden NFL Ratings Czar

“I enjoy reading the PFF articles because they go into more detail than just the numbers. In our day and age numbers get you the accolades, but don't always tell the whole story.”
— Brian Robison - DE, Minnesota Vikings

“It's one thing to watch games and notice a player is doing his job. It's a whole other thing to take a step back, do the homework and understand what it means in the big picture. That's where Pro Football Focus is so great. If I ever have a question on a player, if I ever want to know more than simply what I see on TV, that's the site I click on. It takes the game of football to the next level with stats, snap breakdowns, and really anything else I need to know. It's a fantastic resource.”
— Ian Rapoport - NFL Network

“No matter how many teams you follow, as a fan or reporter, there's a demand to have a functional knowledge of all 32 teams. Pro Football Focus is an invaluable tool, blending contemporary statistics with old-school scouting to provide a deep and realistic perspective on all of the league's players. Most important, they provide information and insight you can trust.”
— Sean Jensen - Chicago Sun-Times Bears and NFL Columnist, AP voter

“The ONLY outside source that has ever directly benefited our contract negotiations with NFL teams. Pro Football Focus has literally helped us put dollars directly into our clients' pockets. Knowledge is power, and the power of tracking every single player on every single snap of every NFL game is absolutely immeasurable.”
— Dave Butz (SportsStars Inc.) NFL Agent

“Well ahead of its time, Pro Football Focus revolutionizes the way football and individual players are analyzed by using actual game footage to create metrics that provide a much better idea of the actual story. This groundbreaking website has made sure the days of using box-score tackle stats to debate on-field impact are gone forever.”
— Evan Silva - Senior NFL Editor for Rotoworld, writer for NBC Sports & Profootballtalk.com.

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Where were these quotes found, on their website?
Please tell me how these aren't paid for endorsements.

And last but not least the Sham Wow is the greatest picker upper ever invented.

Why, because you can't defeat it?



This thread is about Elvis Dumervil, why are you talking about the Miami Dolphins?

The discussion we are having is about Elvis Dumervil and his ability to stop the run. I know it isn't beneficial for you to have that discussion, because he is clearly a terrible run defender, and you can try to change it all you want, but that's the discussion.

Again, you have been dismissing this site since I started referencing Dumervil's ranking against the run compared to other 4-3 defensive ends.

But you don't have a better source. All you can say is he got 50 tackles. But you cannot pull anything that tells us how many run STOPS he got. You can't cite anything that referencing how he performed on a play by play basis. Because only one cite gives us this information.

All you've tried to do is dismiss the site and their method of analysis. You were completely unaware that NFL teams, major media sources, NFL agents and players use this site as a reference tool. You even said yourself that you had never seen PFF used as a source except on these forums, as if that alone is a reason to dismiss what they bring to the table.

Now that you've been faced with overwhelming evidence that others value what PFF brings that are heavily in the know about football, from NFL teams to agents to reporters like Adam Schefter, all you can do is look for the escape clause in your losing argument. But there is none.

Dumervil is a liability against the run in a 4-3 defense. He's going to the right place in Baltimore to use his skillset as a 3-4 defender. He would not have been a good fit in Miami as an every down player, only as a situational pass rusher.

Like I said, be a big boy and admit you had it wrong and move on.

Or continue being hard-headed and making yourself look less and less credible with each post.

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Please tell me how they are?

Go find me some evidence that these folks were paid to say these things about PFF.

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Look Rich (Thrawn), whoever you are. It's obvious you're very passionate and sold on the process these guys use. I can see that. But just because you find it valid, doesn't mean everyone else has to. I don't trust the source, because it is an obscure one in my opinion. You can try to justify it until you're blue in the face, but after going to the website and looking at your "evidence", I still find it to be a flawed stat site that doesn't have all of the proper information to give accurate grades on players. I respect your opinion, I've listened to what you've said, and I'm not changing my opinion. I hope you'll give this tiring rant up and simply respect my opinion. It's obvious this is going nowhere.

How can you have gone to their site and looked at their evidence?

You have to have a premium membership to access the stats I've been referencing.

Don't tell me you expect me to believe you went ahead and paid for a premium membership on a site you dismiss as obscure...

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If xenophobia or elitism are not words that describe your attitude then please make clear what his nationality or personal participation in football have anything to do with this discussion?



So? Do NFL teams and agents consult you about any of your numbers you have tabulated after spending significant time breaking down plays? They don't consult me or any other person on this website I am familiar with. Has any major or minor news outlets ever quoted your numbers or evaluations about NFL games you have studied and charted? They have not from me or anyone I personally know. Have you been so successful in breaking down games and providing numbers that you can hire 17 people to further what you are doing with charting NFL games and players? They don't me or any other average Joe. Do people pay to have access to your compiled statistics about NFL games? Me neither.

So saying he is using the same replays of games that we can see on our computers and if by doing so you are trying to imply that what he and his site is doing and what the average fan is doing is the same thing is not only hubris but complete and utter bull imo.



I defy you to prove that statement from the article I posted.



Since NFL teams and agents are getting his info and using it I hope you see the ridiculousness of what you just wrote. I think your conclusions are specious and your logic full of gaping holes.



Cool no one said to use them as the sole basis for opinion. If someone said that please provide the quote.

Sorry if others are bored with this particular discussion. I will try PMing if I feel the need to continue.

Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

As I said in an earlier post, I'm not advocating stats not be considered at all. Stats are an important tool, one used throughout the NFL, but it is only part of evaluating players, regardless of the source of the statistics. So why argue over one piece of a puzzle?

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Don't give up. Don't ever give up." - Jim Valvano

We're not arguing about statistics.

We are arguing about a website that evaluates players by *gasp* turning on the film and watching every single play of every single game.

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From a questionable source that grades players based upon assumptions.

Ask him. I've said all along that I use multiple sources to form my opinions. Stats are only but one part.

You're right. They turn on game film then close their eyes and assume what is happening based on the sounds they hear.

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Yes, we know. You listen to local talk radio, local fans and you watch Dumer il on every play to see how holds up against the run.

We've heard this BS before....

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This argument is silly, as most are. You disagree on the conclusions you've reached based on what you to perceive to be somewhat contradictory evidence. Here's the fact: Dumervil signed with Baltimore, so it DOESN'T MATTER any more. Let it go, guys. Let's talk about the relative merits of Winston, or Grimes, or Abraham, or somebody who might actually be in our favorite team's future.

I agree, this is a dead matter. Dumervil won't be a Dolphin. No point in talking about him anymore. Unless of course we play Baltimore.

In addition, I've contacted PFF to get further clarification from a company representative as to exactly how they grade players. I'd be shocked if they were anything more than average Joe's watching film and making educated guesses about what happened. I still maintain that there is no way they have enough relevant information to give players a correct grade. But we will find out once the company hopefully writes me back.

This argument became silly when wk started dismissing PFF and what they do because their analysis didn't reveal some assumptions he had about a player. He turned this thread into a discussion about PFF rather than Dumervil because he cant accept what most know and what PFF's analysis tells us. That as a 43 DE, he sucks against the run.

It is now a larger discussion about PFF, a resource Phinfever pays for and its bloggers use in their analysis. A resource NFL teams, media, agents etc pay for and use as an indicator of individual player performance. Wk diminishes And disparages PFF without knowing their methodology and focuses on the fact that the founder is British. It really is one of the most pathetic arguments I have seen on these forums. It is so pathetic that aftrr already disparaging what they do, he has sent them an email to find out what they do.

There is nothing I detest more than people who pass judgment on assumptions. Thats what wk has done here because he cant accept that one little thing in this world is not as he sees it.

He is also dishonest, claiming he checked out their stats and found flaws. Except that you need to pay for a membership to see stats. I highly doubt he purchased a premium account to see what we see.


That being said, we at Phinfever will continue using PFF to bring you excellent player analysis, because it it a far more reliable source than local talk radio and fan site opinions.

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