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 Post subject: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:34 pm 
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"The DOMA ruling has now made the normalisation of polygamy, paedophilia, incest and bestiality inevitable," - American Family Association

What I think: none of that is likely.
What I know: stupidity is directly correlated with association to the AFA


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:25 pm 
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I'm going to marry my dog....


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:26 am 
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I'm more afraid of the fact that my government is collecting the cell phone records of millions of its citizens.

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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:32 pm 
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Makchell wrote:
I'm going to marry my dog....


I am going to propose a new bill to congress that will allow you to marry 8 of your dogs


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:20 pm 
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I think it would be logical that polygamy be legalized.


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:45 pm 
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degs wrote:
"The DOMA ruling has now made the normalisation of polygamy, paedophilia, incest and bestiality inevitable," - American Family Association

What I think: none of that is likely.
What I know: stupidity is directly correlated with association to the AFA


Your post is a bit misleading as this quote is directly attributed to one person who is part of the American Family Association. He may have been speaking for himself since he did post this on his twitter account.

That being said, other members of the AFA said other ridiculous things...

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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:46 pm 
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AQNOR wrote:
I think it would be logical that polygamy be legalized.


How so?

Is there a groundswell of support for it anywhere in the U.S. besides certain remote parts of Utah?

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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:02 pm 
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Rich wrote:
AQNOR wrote:
I think it would be logical that polygamy be legalized.


How so?

Is there a groundswell of support for it anywhere in the U.S. besides certain remote parts of Utah?


Does there need to be a groundswell of support for a legal matter to be decided?


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:33 pm 
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AQNOR wrote:
Rich wrote:
AQNOR wrote:
I think it would be logical that polygamy be legalized.


How so?

Is there a groundswell of support for it anywhere in the U.S. besides certain remote parts of Utah?


Does there need to be a groundswell of support for a legal matter to be decided?


Is there any support for it anywhere (other than Utah as Rich mentioned)?
Could you explain why you think it is logical?


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:41 pm 
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I am wondering what would be the legal justification for not recognizing polygamist marriages? In my opinion I think judges are becoming more activist and could see this happening. I don't think it will be tomorrow. Marriage has been redefined. I can see this as a logical progression.

I am not saying that it will definitely happen. I have been wrong so often that it has become a habit. : )


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:16 am 
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AQNOR wrote:
Rich wrote:
AQNOR wrote:
I think it would be logical that polygamy be legalized.


How so?

Is there a groundswell of support for it anywhere in the U.S. besides certain remote parts of Utah?


Does there need to be a groundswell of support for a legal matter to be decided?


Yes, it isn't as if the Supreme Court gave its opinion on gay marriage overnight... this is several years in the making and its not over yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:00 am 
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degs wrote:
"The DOMA ruling has now made the normalisation of polygamy, paedophilia, incest and bestiality inevitable," - American Family Association

I've always wondered what the people who support gay rights think about incest between two adults.


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:01 am 
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Rich wrote:
I'm more afraid of the fact that my government is collecting the cell phone records of millions of its citizens.

Who really needed someone exposing it to know it was going on?


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:38 am 
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Dphins4me wrote:
degs wrote:
"The DOMA ruling has now made the normalisation of polygamy, paedophilia, incest and bestiality inevitable," - American Family Association

I've always wondered what the people who support gay rights think about incest between two adults.


My opinion on gay rights is that it is a civil rights issue. The Declaration of Independence clearly states that "all men are created equal." Not just straight people.

Incest is another story. There are reasons why that is not allowed. It is far more than someone doesn't "like" or "condone" the lifestyle.


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:10 am 
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Yeah but I think calling it gay "rights" is somewhat misleading.

Gays get jobs, just like everyone else. They can eat, shop and hang out anywhere, just like everyone else. And if they aren't allowed to do so, there are civil rights laws that help address those concerns, especially of the hate crime variety, which is most critical.

I think some domestic partner rights can definitely be enhanced, such as when their partner is in the hospital, etc. This is one of the biggest reasons for arguing for gay marriage but there are other ways to solve it besides marriage, such as civil unions.

At the end of the day, I think it is a state issue, which is essentially what the Supreme Court established.

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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:57 pm 
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Rich wrote:
Yeah but I think calling it gay "rights" is somewhat misleading.


True, the real issue is civil rights.

Rich wrote:
Gays get jobs, just like everyone else. They can eat, shop and hang out anywhere, just like everyone else.


They just can't get married, just like everyone else.

Rich wrote:
And if they aren't allowed to do so, there are civil rights laws that help address those concerns, especially of the hate crime variety, which is most critical.


Which is a funny point, as I don't believe in the idea of hate crimes.

Rich wrote:
I think some domestic partner rights can definitely be enhanced, such as when their partner is in the hospital, etc. This is one of the biggest reasons for arguing for gay marriage but there are other ways to solve it besides marriage, such as civil unions.


"Separate But Equal" has been proven to not work, particularly where there are singnificant groups of people that are actively looking to discriminate.

Rich wrote:

At the end of the day, I think it is a state issue, which is essentially what the Supreme Court established.

The Supreme Court basically side stepped the issue, not affirmed it.

Marriage in every other instance is respected from state to state. For gay marriage, some states have made illegal to recognize in any way. Someone travelling through North Carolina loses all their marriage privileges. This makes no sense and I can see a Supreme Court overturning of those laws and probably state control of the issue because of it.

If The federal government can force private businesses to serve customers because of interstate commerce, they can force states to recognize legal marriages. This divergence in the definition of what is a marriage is a serious issue for the continuity of laws in the US


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:13 pm 
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They just can't get married, just like everyone else.

The def of marriage is below....

1.The formal union of a man and a woman


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:13 am 
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Makchell wrote:
They just can't get married, just like everyone else.

The def of marriage is below....

1.The formal union of a man and a woman


1) whose definition is that?
2) Is it ok if I file that along with the following:

The front of the bus is designated for white passengers
Women are not allowed to vote
Neither are blacks
Native Americans are not US citizens

3) I prefer the following statement over your definition:

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal"


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:16 am 
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degs wrote:
2) Is it ok if I file that along with the following:

The front of the bus is designated for white passengers
Women are not allowed to vote
Neither are blacks
Native Americans are not US citizens


Sorry, maybe it is my perception of marriage not being as big an issue as these, but I think this is a poor comparison.

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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:57 am 
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1) whose definition is that?

Webster

2) Is it ok if I file that along with the following:

no


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:05 am 
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Rich wrote:
degs wrote:
2) Is it ok if I file that along with the following:

The front of the bus is designated for white passengers
Women are not allowed to vote
Neither are blacks
Native Americans are not US citizens


Sorry, maybe it is my perception of marriage not being as big an issue as these, but I think this is a poor comparison.


The right to visit your dying family member in the hospital, the inheritance tax benefits and overall the right to be recognized as equal in marriage isn't as big a deal as where you can ride on a bus or eat in a restaurant?


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:08 am 
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Makchell wrote:
1) whose definition is that?

Webster



Ummmm.... no it is not:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/marriage

Quote:
2) Is it ok if I file that along with the following:

no


I will anyway. My right to believe it is a civil rights issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:24 am 
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Oh yeah, I had a "traditional Webster", I forgot to look up the new Webster with the progressive definitions. Hey, I respect your opinion on the issue degs.


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:05 am 
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Makchell wrote:
Oh yeah, I had a "traditional Webster", I forgot to look up the new Webster with the progressive definitions. Hey, I respect your opinion on the issue degs.


Appreciate that. And I'm happy to have a discussion.
But regardless of what version of Webster, I don't think laws and rights should be based upon what the editorial staff at websters thinks. Nor should they be based upon the bible.

They should be based upon rights set forth in the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:30 am 
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degs wrote:
The right to visit your dying family member in the hospital, the inheritance tax benefits and overall the right to be recognized as equal in marriage isn't as big a deal as where you can ride on a bus or eat in a restaurant?


Civil unions would allow for this just as much as marriage, so I don't find it necessary to intertwine the two.

My point is that two people choosing to make vows to each other under law is not comparable to an entire race or gender being allowed to cast their vote to decide the future of the society they live in.

They could just as well make these vows in private... why does the state need for them to recognize it?

The debate about gay marriage is more symbolic than functional. The debates about gender and racial rights were not.

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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:17 pm 
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degs wrote:
Marriage in every other instance is respected from state to state. For gay marriage, some states have made illegal to recognize in any way. Someone travelling through North Carolina loses all their marriage privileges. This makes no sense and I can see a Supreme Court overturning of those laws and probably state control of the issue because of it.

If The federal government can force private businesses to serve customers because of interstate commerce, they can force states to recognize legal marriages. This divergence in the definition of what is a marriage is a serious issue for the continuity of laws in the US


Didn't the repeal of DOMA basically say that if you are married in MA but travelling through NC the state of NC has to recognize your marriage in terms of hospital visitation, etc.?

Its up to the states individually to decide whether people can be married and live as a married couple in that state. It doesn't undo another state's recognized marriage for the 6 hours a gay couple spends driving through. Could be wrong but that is what I read about the ruling.

This is where states' rights becomes an important point of the debate. California voted overwhelmingly to not have gay marriage. Other states have done the same. While I have no issue with gay marriage I get more concerned when a minority group has more say than the democratic process.

Think of the dry town example. I can't walk into a dry town and demand someone serve me a beer just like they are doing in a neighboring town. I'm being denied "equality" because the majority of the town prefers a certain style of living...non-public drinking. I have a choice - accept their rules or go somewhere else to find a drink. There are always other options.

Maybe some day there will be universal acceptance of gay marriage. Until such a day I think the logical solution is to allow citizens of each state to determine their own rules.

You mentioned the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. Do not forget that many of the architects, Jefferson notably, favored emphasis on state power over a grand federal power. It allows for a choice to live amongst others who share your preferences.


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 Post subject: Re: Be Very Afraid
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:56 am 
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degs wrote:
My opinion on gay rights is that it is a civil rights issue. The Declaration of Independence clearly states that "all men are created equal." Not just straight people.
We threw those papers out a long time ago. However, the "all men are created equal" does not work. We are all still in the same loop. I cannot marry a man either, so in saying that we are both still equal.

They want special rights just for them.

degs wrote:
Incest is another story. There are reasons why that is not allowed. It is far more than someone doesn't "like" or "condone" the lifestyle.
Its more of a ick factor. Kids? Right? Where is the proof on this? Fathers have impregnated their daughters since the dawn of time & still happening today. Are those kids deformed? mentally challenged? However, lets just say one of them cannot have kids or gets fixed in order to prevent kids. Any difference then? Two adults not hurting anyone.

Just playing devils advocate on this, BTW.


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