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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:43 pm 
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It is a joke, let's move on. It has become a media circus and it's not fair to the players that are actually playing Mon. night, let's go!!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:09 pm 
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I still think Philly is safe. Not much chance he get's fired over this. He may get fired if we don't make the playoffs.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:13 pm 
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Sounds to me like the Dolphins were try to make chicken soup out of chicken s**t and Richie took it to far.

Fire Ireland for drafting him..... LOL

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Another example of Philbin not wanting to coach players.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:47 pm 
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Phins Rock wrote:
Haha wrote:
I still think Philly is safe. Not much chance he get's fired over this. He may get fired if we don't make the playoffs.


I'd be shocked if Philbin was the Head Coach in 2 months.

Wouldn't be surprised if he isn't in 2 weeks, or even 2 days.


I hope you're right but... I just don't see that happening.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:25 am 
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This is all being blown WAY out of proportion.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:45 am 
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This team will look completely different by next season.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:40 am 
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So now we have another excuse to a sucky season.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:45 am 
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The Hen wrote:
Sounds to me like the Dolphins were try to make chicken soup out of chicken s**t and Richie took it to far.


That's pretty much what it amounts to.

The coaching staff could have asked Incognito to help toughen Martin up by mentoring him and he took it to mean that he had to toughen him up by harassing him.

It still falls on Incognito unless the coaches explicitly told him to do what he wound up doing.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:57 am 
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Phins Rock wrote:
Haha wrote:
I still think Philly is safe. Not much chance he get's fired over this. He may get fired if we don't make the playoffs.


I'd be shocked if Philbin was the Head Coach in 2 months.

Wouldn't be surprised if he isn't in 2 weeks, or even 2 days.


Do you have evidence showing Philbin was the one who directed Incognito to toughen him up?

You can criticize a head coach for not having better control over his subordinates or players, that is fair. But a lot of people here and in the media are playing dangerous games of assumptions, accusations and making predictions without knowing the facts.

All we know so far is Incognito was suspended, a video of him being a maniac surfaced, and Martin released some of the text from a voicemail.

No has any idea of Philbin's level of involvement.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:00 am 
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This all should have been handled in house. Facts point to Martin not telling Philben what was going on and he just left.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:00 am 
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PR, you are taking vague information and being a bit irresponsible with it.

You have ZERO idea of what Martin told Philbin, what Philbin said to him, if Philbin discussed it with coaces, which coach if any gave an order, or anything other than Martin left the team and released some text from a voice message.

Vicarious liability? You are letting your hatred of Philbin dictate how you want this story to play out. Let the facts speak before making serious accusations or demands.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:05 am 
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jammer wrote:
PR, you are taking vague information and being a bit irresponsible with it.

You have ZERO idea of what Martin told Philbin, what Philbin said to him, if Philbin discussed it with coaces, which coach if any gave an order, or anything other than Martin left the team and released some text from a voice message.

Vicarious liability? You are letting your hatred of Philbin dictate how you want this story to play out. Let the facts speak before making serious accusations or demands.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:10 am 
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jammer wrote:
Vicarious liability?


PR may be jumping the gun on how responsible, in real terms, Philbin is, but if someone on the coaching staff did indeed order Incognito to toughen up Martin, the coaching staff and the Miami Dolphins as an employer are ultimately responsible for what transpired.

If the organization ordered Incognito to "toughen up" Martin, he was following orders, even if he did it in his own way. They are liable, they are not off the hook because he "deviated" from the way they were hoping he would toughen up Martin.

So it behooves them to keep Jonathan Martin on the Dolphins through the remainder of his contract, otherwise he has grounds to sue them for the money he is not making if he is released.

It also behooves them to discipline Incognito because he is an employee of the organization.

I'm sure the Dolphins have their Legal behind the scenes assessing this situation to make sure they don't F up.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:26 am 
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Makchell wrote:
This all should have been handled in house. Facts point to Martin not telling Philben what was going on and he just left.


The facts also point to Martin not attending OTA's in April and Ireland still counting on him to be the starting LT. How do you not trade from Brandon Albert or sign a free agent LT before the season begins knowing this guy isn't even dedicated to coming to the OTA's?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:29 am 
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bobby0112 wrote:
Makchell wrote:
This all should have been handled in house. Facts point to Martin not telling Philben what was going on and he just left.


The facts also point to Martin not attending OTA's in April and Ireland still counting on him to be the starting LT. How do you not trade from Brandon Albert or sign a free agent LT before the season begins knowing this guy isn't even dedicated to coming to the OTA's?


He missed 2 days of VOLUNTARY work outs.

Let's not go overboard.

As for handling in-house, Richie Incognito engaged in behavior that is against NFL rules. Jonathan Martin used the proper channels to report this behavior.

There is a reason these mechanisms were setup by the league and the players union, and that is so they could be used in these types of scenarios.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:52 am 
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Rich wrote:
PR may be jumping the gun on how responsible, in real terms, Philbin is, but if someone on the coaching staff did indeed order Incognito to toughen up Martin, the coaching staff and the Miami Dolphins as an employer are ultimately responsible for what transpired.

If the organization ordered Incognito to "toughen up" Martin, he was following orders, even if he did it in his own way. They are liable, they are not off the hook because he "deviated" from the way they were hoping he would toughen up Martin.

So it behooves them to keep Jonathan Martin on the Dolphins through the remainder of his contract, otherwise he has grounds to sue them for the money he is not making if he is released.

It also behooves them to discipline Incognito because he is an employee of the organization.

I'm sure the Dolphins have their Legal behind the scenes assessing this situation to make sure they don't F up.


Yes, I agreed with taking responsibility for the actions of your subordinates. But to call for Philbin's firing and imply that he gave an order, directly or indirectly, without any evidence is wrong.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:57 am 
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jammer wrote:
Yes, I agreed with taking responsibility for the actions of your subordinates. But to call for Philbin's firing and imply that he gave an order, directly or indirectly, without any evidence is wrong.


Philbin said himself that he is ultimately responsible for the work environment in that lockerroom.

If he is... then he is and will not get spared because he didn't know. He should have known if he didn't know. That's his job, to be in tune with the team, ESPECIALLY the coaches.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:09 am 
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Rich wrote:
Philbin said himself that he is ultimately responsible for the work environment in that lockerroom.

If he is... then he is and will not get spared because he didn't know. He should have known if he didn't know. That's his job, to be in tune with the team, ESPECIALLY the coaches.


I'm not asking for him to get spared any punishment. I think you and I are on the same page with this. Having him be fired or punished for not knowing what subordinates are doing is a heck of a lot better than giving an ambiguous order that resulted in a player feeling threatened. That is criminal.

I agree with PR's rant about not being able to manage. He appears to struggle with that. That is reason to fire him unless he cleans it up over the next 8 weeks and proves he had nothing to do with this incident other than be too detached from what it is going on.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:28 am 
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Sure...Philbin said to go harass martin. I can see Philbin telling Incog to take him under his wing, mentor him...etc...there is nothing to this.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:29 am 
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NFLJunkie wrote:
Sure...Philbin said to go harass martin. I can see Philbin telling Incog to take him under his wing, mentor him...etc...there is nothing to this.

If Philbin gave the order to toughen Martin up, he may very well have had the mentoring/take him under your wing approach in mind.

But he elected to have a player with a history of issues, violent issues and mental instability mentor a younger player.

What did he think would happen?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:36 am 
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Rich wrote:
NFLJunkie wrote:
Sure...Philbin said to go harass martin. I can see Philbin telling Incog to take him under his wing, mentor him...etc...there is nothing to this.

If Philbin gave the order to toughen Martin up, he may very well have had the mentoring/take him under your wing approach in mind.

But he elected to have a player with a history of issues, violent issues and mental instability mentor a younger player.

What did he think would happen?


I'm sure Philbin thought his 6'5" 312lb LT would go running home to hide behind Mom's skirt. BTW, Everything I'm reading about Incognito, he is not the guy you're describing. He has a bad boy reputation on the field but I don't remember too many off-the-field issues in Miami and his team, for the most part, are rallying around him.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:40 am 
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NFLJunkie wrote:
Everything I'm reading about Incognito, he is not the guy you're describing. He has a bad boy reputation on the field but I don't remember too many off-the-field issues in Miami and his team, for the most part, are rallying around him.


He was kicked out of two college programs and a professional program (soon to be two). He was also charged with assault. He has also been voted the dirtiest player in the NFL. There is a long list of character issues and a long list of players who have a perspective of Incognito being a guy who is out to hurt opposing players etc.

He admitted to smoking pot to deal with anger issues and admitted to alot of counseling and seeking help for anger issues.

So I am not sure what sources you're reading. Maybe they are published by the Incognito family.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:43 am 
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Phins Rock wrote:
Ignorance is not an excuse, it's an indictment.


No one is arguing that. But its different from implying Philbin directly or indirectly gave the order. For all you know the following occurred:

Martin: Coach, I got criticized a lot this offseason and people are doubting me. Its really messing with me.

Philbin: Just do your job and work hard.


Then Philbin to (insert coach): Just talked to Jonathan. Something isn't right. I hope that kid can handle what we're asking of him. He's replacing a Pro Bowler.

So if that coach goes to Incognito and says make sure he's tough enough for his job are you still going to maintain that Philbin was part of some code red?

Everything I just made up is just as probable as the stories you are implying are truths because neither of us have EVIDENCE.

Busting a guy for ignorance is one thing. Implying he is part of criminal activity takes it to a whole new level. I just caution you to be careful what you are saying.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:46 am 
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Rich wrote:
If Philbin gave the order to toughen Martin up


IF is the key word. We don't know yet.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:46 am 
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Rich wrote:
NFLJunkie wrote:
Everything I'm reading about Incognito, he is not the guy you're describing. He has a bad boy reputation on the field but I don't remember too many off-the-field issues in Miami and his team, for the most part, are rallying around him.


He was kicked out of two college programs and a professional program (soon to be two). He was also charged with assault. He has also been voted the dirtiest player in the NFL. There is a long list of character issues and a long list of players who have a perspective of Incognito being a guy who is out to hurt opposing players etc.

He admitted to smoking pot to deal with anger issues and admitted to alot of counseling and seeking help for anger issues.

So I am not sure what sources you're reading. Maybe they are published by the Incognito family.


I did clarify that by saying "since he's been with Miami". I'm going by what the guys say that worked with him everyday. I just read another article by Karlos Dansby who joined the team at the same time. As far as I can tell, he's been a better role model than Marshall was when he was here. Philbin, if anything, has shown little patience for off-field issues. Chad Johnson ring a bell?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:49 am 
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jammer wrote:
Rich wrote:
If Philbin gave the order to toughen Martin up


IF is the key word. We don't know yet.


Even if Philbin told Incog to toughen him up there was nothing implied there to go bully the guy. Philbin was probably trying to ignite a little intensity in Martin. This is a non-story period. I've heard one of my assistant coaches saying they need to toughen some of their guys up. There trying to blow this up into "Commander Jessup, did you order the code red????"


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:51 am 
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NFLJunkie wrote:
jammer wrote:
Rich wrote:
If Philbin gave the order to toughen Martin up


IF is the key word. We don't know yet.


Even if Philbin told Incog to toughen him up there was nothing implied there to go bully the guy. Philbin was probably trying to ignite a little intensity in Martin. This is a non-story period. I've heard one of my assistant coaches saying they need to toughen some of their guys up. There trying to blow this up into "Commander Jessup, did you order the code red????"


Now you're putting me in a position to counter myself. If he did say "toughen him up" then he is guilty of lighting a fuse and this mess becomes something greater.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:52 am 
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The wussification of America Continues....a multi million dollar athlete has the mental toughness of a buttercup. Philbin's only mistake was letting Ireland draft him.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:56 am 
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Quote:
Now you're putting me in a position to counter myself. If he did say "toughen him up" then he is guilty of lighting a fuse and this mess becomes something greater.

So I guess when my dad told me to join the military it will toughen me up, he was abusing me and I didn't even know it. Poor me.

I've used the phrase when asked about my OL ... ie I need to toughen them up. "Steel hardens steel, so as one man sharpens another" I'm certain Philbin used this often, overused phrase as a gesture to mentor him...nothing more.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:08 pm 
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NFLJunkie wrote:
The wussification of America Continues....a multi million dollar athlete has the mental toughness of a buttercup. Philbin's only mistake was letting Ireland draft him.


Amen! And the bigger mistake is the decision to count on this guy to replace Long and leave the o-line as the most questionable part of the team after huge free agent spending spree.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:19 pm 
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Makchell wrote:
It is a joke, let's move on. It has become a media circus and it's not fair to the players that are actually playing Mon. night, let's go!!


couldn't agree more..again this goes back to the ny ne media blowing this up....they should worry half as much about billycheat on a weekly basis...the qb has a broken hand, pictures surface of finger taped together and lots of swelling and it's not on the friggen injury report? nothing.

half these stories about this controdict each other..rumor after rumor


Last edited by Kev1321 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:19 pm 
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Phins Rock wrote:
NFLJunkie wrote:
Quote:
Now you're putting me in a position to counter myself. If he did say "toughen him up" then he is guilty of lighting a fuse and this mess becomes something greater.

So I guess when my dad told me to join the military it will toughen me up, he was abusing me and I didn't even know it. Poor me.

I've used the phrase when asked about my OL ... ie I need to toughen them up. "Steel hardens steel, so as one man sharpens another" I'm certain Philbin used this often, overused phrase as a gesture to mentor him...nothing more.


It's not about saying, "we need to toughen this guy up." That happens, and it's fine.

It's about telling a guy like Incognito to do it, and then not following up on what he was doing...or following up, and allowing these reported bullying stories to happen.

Again, what has Incog done since coming to Miami that would set off alarm bells. Did he beat up his girlfriend? wife? How about getting stabbed? All I've heard from this guy in Miami is he's dirty on the field. Yeah, well a lot of guys are dirty on the field. I think Ricky Williams nailed it... Martin didn't belong in the NFL and with two Harvard Lawyers as parents, he'll probably get a nice settlement check. It sure looks to me like Martin was "recording" events since the spring. That tells me he was planning on blowing this up.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:34 pm 
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Quote:
...

• Jonathan Martin had considered quitting football long before abruptly leaving the team Oct. 28.

• The Dolphins leadership council never knew of the explosive voice message left by Incognito on Martin’s phone back in April, which has been the catalyst for this entire controversy.

...

• Pouncey said he was never personally asked by coaches to toughen up Martin. The Sun-Sentinel reported Wednesday that Incognito was directed to take Martin under wing and toughen him up.

• The prank that apparently pushed Martin over the edge – everyone getting up from the lunch table when he sat down – had been played on many Dolphins players “dozens” of times. Even coach Joe Philbin has been the butt of it.

• Pouncey told Carter, whom he’s known for more than a decade: “You know I would never allow anyone to be bullied on my team. ... [Incognito] thought he was trying to spur Jonathan Martin on. [But I] wish the words were different.” ...

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/06/3 ... rylink=cpy


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:52 pm 
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If this ends up being that Martin just didn't like NFL locker room culture, felt like an outsider, wanted to quit but didn't want to ruin his "reputation" by doing so then holy smokes did he do a good job of making his desire to play the last thing the media will focus on.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:39 pm 
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jammer wrote:
If this ends up being that Martin just didn't like NFL locker room culture, felt like an outsider, wanted to quit but didn't want to ruin his "reputation" by doing so then holy smokes did he do a good job of making his desire to play the last thing the media will focus on.






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A person diagnosed with schizophrenia may experience hallucinations (most reported are hearing voices), delusions (often bizarre or persecutory in nature), and disorganized thinking and speech. The latter may range from loss of train of thought, to sentences only loosely connected in meaning, to incoherence known as word salad in severe cases. Social withdrawal, sloppiness of dress and hygiene, and loss of motivation and judgment are all common in schizophrenia.[8] There is often an observable pattern of emotional difficulty, for example lack of responsiveness.[9] Impairment in social cognition is associated with schizophrenia,[10] as are symptoms of paranoia; social isolation commonly occurs.[11] Difficulties in working and long-term memory, attention, executive functioning, and speed of processing also commonly occur.[2] In one uncommon subtype, the person may be largely mute, remain motionless in bizarre postures, or exhibit purposeless agitation, all signs of catatonia.[12] About 30% to 50% of people with schizophrenia do not have insight; in other words, they do not accept their condition or its treatment.[13] Treatment may have some effect on insight.[14] People with schizophrenia often find facial emotion perception to be difficult


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:52 pm 
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So, I am interested to know when Philben asked Incognito to toughen up Martin: before the supposed talk or after?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:25 pm 
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Quote:
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The narrative out there is that Incognito was a Martin tormentor who wanted to toughen him up. Well, if Incognito wants Martin toughened up, why would help him in a fight?

The narrative out there is that Martin is physically soft. Well, actually, I've seen Martin in more than a couple of practice tussles and I've seen him take shots at opponents during games. During his rookie year he got into a fight on the field with Starks, who is one tough man, the first week of training camp.

Afterward, Hartline told me, both Incognito and Pouncey were upset with him because in some form or fashion Hartline seemed to agree with Jordan about the exchange.

So even on a non-physical level, Incognito and Pouncey had Martin's back after the fact.

Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins ... rylink=cpy


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:57 pm 
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During his rookie year he got into a fight on the field with Starks, who is one tough man, the first week of training camp.

SO Richie is tougher that Starks? I doubt it, Martin stood up against Starks, but not Richie.....OK. The story gets weirder and weider.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:05 pm 
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Big Dave wrote:
So, I am interested to know when Philben asked Incognito to toughen up Martin: before the supposed talk or after?


For the 1000th time, are we sure it was Philbin? (sorry Dave, you're the Godfather so please don't leave me any threatening voicemails!)


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