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 A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula 
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
NFLJunkie wrote:
Okay, which is why I suggested the catagory as still in the NFL. If a player is contributing here, or somewhere else, is irrelevant to how good the GM's drafts were. "contributed little" is a subjective term and means different things to different people. Like Chad Henne who is a servicable backup. Another factor in play is the GM's ability to retain talent. The 1970s Atlanta Braves are a great example. They were a farm team for the rest of baseball. Players would leave and go on to have great careers elsewhere. Once they changed that, their fortunes changed. Right now, draft is half the picture with Ireland. Talent retention is the other half where he failed miserably.


Chad Henne was a second round pick who was to be the QB of the future. He is a bust.

If he were drafted in the 7th round and had the same career trajectory, then I would label him as a contributor.

I'm factoring draft positioning. When you find guys like Chris Clemons, Reshad Jones and Charles Clay in the 5th round or later, you're not just doing a decent job on those picks, you're doing an excellent job.

Conversely, when you draft Pat White in the 2nd round, you've screwed the pooch bigtime.

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Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:44 am
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
NFLJunkie wrote:
Quote:
We've been over this before. Jeff Ireland had no say in the hiring of coaches.
This is a ridiculous statement. No one outside the organization knows this and any "rumor" or article by a reporter is simply hearsay. If this is the case, then maybe that is what is wrong with Miami. If Ross has his hands that deep into the final say rather than relying on football men, this team is screwed and will continue to be so.


It is not a ridiculous statement.

Joe Philbin reports directly to Ross, never to Ireland.

The same was the case with Sparano.

Learn your facts before submitting posts and criticizing other posts.

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Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:45 am
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
Rich wrote:
NFLJunkie wrote:
Quote:
We've been over this before. Jeff Ireland had no say in the hiring of coaches.
This is a ridiculous statement. No one outside the organization knows this and any "rumor" or article by a reporter is simply hearsay. If this is the case, then maybe that is what is wrong with Miami. If Ross has his hands that deep into the final say rather than relying on football men, this team is screwed and will continue to be so.


It is not a ridiculous statement.

Joe Philbin reports directly to Ross, never to Ireland.

The same was the case with Sparano.

Learn your facts before submitting posts and criticizing other posts.


Who the coach reports too isn't in play here. It is whether Ireland was responsible for putting forth the candidates and building a case for Ross on who to hire. Why did Harbaugh fliy to Miami and meet with Ross and Ireland? .. why not just Ross? Ditto for Manning? I think it is a ridiculous assertion to say Ireland was not an integral part of that equation.


Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:48 am
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
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Chad Henne was a second round pick who was to be the QB of the future. He is a bust.

If he were drafted in the 7th round and had the same career trajectory, then I would label him as a contributor.

I'm factoring draft positioning. When you find guys like Chris Clemons, Reshad Jones and Charles Clay in the 5th round or later, you're not just doing a decent job on those picks, you're doing an excellent job.

Conversely, when you draft Pat White in the 2nd round, you've screwed the pooch bigtime.


All I pointed out was your scale on contribution is subjective. Maybe you should break it down and leave it factual. Chad Henne might have been a bust where he was taken, but so is Dion Jordan at the moment. Chad still played significant time with the Jags this season. Maybe have it broken down like this.
Pro bowler
Starter
backup
Then have a percentage for each. Henne is a backup. I don't think anyone argues otherwise. Make it irrespective of which team because we're evaluating the ability of the GM to draft talent. Not whether that talent is still playing for Miami.


Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:52 am
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
NFLJunkie wrote:
Who the coach reports too isn't in play here. It is whether Ireland was responsible for putting forth the candidates and building a case for Ross on who to hire. Why did Harbaugh fliy to Miami and meet with Ross and Ireland? .. why not just Ross? Ditto for Manning? I think it is a ridiculous assertion to say Ireland was not an integral part of that equation.


Once again, you have your facts all wrong. Harbaugh never flew to Miami. Ross flew out to meet him and made Ireland come, which created a rift between Ireland and Sparano. Manning never came to Miami either... and he isn't a coach... he is a player, which would fall under the GM's responsibility... so I am confused as to why you are even throwing that in the equation.

Ross hires coaches, he has several advisors, Ireland being one of them. But it has been widely reported that Ross leans on Carl Peterson quite a bit for advice...

Again, get your facts straight before hitting submit.

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Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:54 am
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
NFLJunkie wrote:
All I pointed out was your scale on contribution is subjective.


You said it was skewed, not subjective.

Of course it is subjective. Any scale is going to have a certain amount of subjectivity.

Quote:
but so is Dion Jordan at the moment.


You clearly didn't read my original post carefully enough.

Quote:
Then have a percentage for each. Henne is a backup. I don't think anyone argues otherwise. Make it irrespective of which team because we're evaluating the ability of the GM to draft talent. Not whether that talent is still playing for Miami.


I decided to do it the way I did it. Feel free to put together your own in the way you feel is best. It would still be subjective, no matter which way you decide to do it.

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Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:56 am
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
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Ross hires coaches, he has several advisors, Ireland being one of them. But it has been widely reported that Ross leans on Carl Peterson quite a bit for advice...


So Ross "made" Ireland come with him. That is funny since according to you he has many advisors and Ireland is relatively insignificant. I think you absolve Ireland of any responsibility. BTW, you always pretend to know more than you do and you spew media reports like their facts. I brought up Manning because Ireland has been heavily involved in every major decision this team has made since he's been GM.


Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:00 am
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
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You said it was skewed, not subjective.

Of course it is subjective. Any scale is going to have a certain amount of subjectivity.


Skewed and subjective are really identical terms in this perspective. I could have finished the thought by saying "skewed towards your judgement of what a contributor is"...ie your relative subjectivity.


Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:03 am
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
NFLJunkie wrote:
So Ross "made" Ireland come with him. That is funny since according to you he has many advisors and Ireland is relatively insignificant. I think you absolve Ireland of any responsibility. BTW, you always pretend to know more than you do and you spew media reports like their facts. I brought up Manning because Ireland has been heavily involved in every major decision this team has made since he's been GM.


Yes, I said Ireland was relatively insignificant.

When you run out of arguments, make stuff up!

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Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:06 am
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
NFLJunkie wrote:
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You said it was skewed, not subjective.

Of course it is subjective. Any scale is going to have a certain amount of subjectivity.


Skewed and subjective are really identical terms in this perspective. I could have finished the thought by saying "skewed towards your judgement of what a contributor is"...ie your relative subjectivity.


Skew would seem to infer that I wanted a certain end result and made my analysis fit that end result.

That's not the case.

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Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:18 am
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
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Skew would seem to infer that I wanted a certain end result and made my analysis fit that end result.

That's not the case.


Bingo!!! We have a bingo!!!! :haha


Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:21 am
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
NFLJunkie wrote:
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Skew would seem to infer that I wanted a certain end result and made my analysis fit that end result.

That's not the case.


Bingo!!! We have a bingo!!!! :haha


So again, you're judging my analysis without knowing the criteria.

I find it amazing how you continue finding ways to lose credibility.

It's like a guy without a penny continuing to lose money.

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Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:23 am
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
Rich wrote:
From 2003 to 2007, the Dolphins went 30-50, including the worst season in franchise history.

From 2008 to 2013, the Dolphins went 46-50. And there have only been two head coaches during that period.

So I am confused as to what 5 year stretch you're talking about...


Should I inform you of the franchise worst 4 consecutive losing seasons under Ireland, topped off with an 8-8 record the 5th year?

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Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:52 am
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
AFCMiamiEast wrote:
Rich wrote:
From 2003 to 2007, the Dolphins went 30-50, including the worst season in franchise history.

From 2008 to 2013, the Dolphins went 46-50. And there have only been two head coaches during that period.

So I am confused as to what 5 year stretch you're talking about...


Should I inform you of the franchise worst 4 consecutive losing seasons under Ireland, topped off with an 8-8 record the 5th year?


2003-2007 = 30-50

2008-2013 = 46-50

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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
Rich wrote:
AFCMiamiEast wrote:
Rich wrote:
From 2003 to 2007, the Dolphins went 30-50, including the worst season in franchise history.

From 2008 to 2013, the Dolphins went 46-50. And there have only been two head coaches during that period.

So I am confused as to what 5 year stretch you're talking about...


Should I inform you of the franchise worst 4 consecutive losing seasons under Ireland, topped off with an 8-8 record the 5th year?


2003-2007 = 30-50

2008-2013 = 46-50


If we're doing apples to apples (5 years) then shouldn't it be

2003-2007 = 30-50

2008-2012 = 38-42.

Subtract Ireland's best year of 11-5, and use 2009-2013, you still get 35-45 which beats 2003-2007.


Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:27 pm
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
jammer wrote:
If we're doing apples to apples (5 years) then shouldn't it be

2003-2007 = 30-50

2008-2012 = 38-42.

Subtract Ireland's best year of 11-5, and use 2009-2013, you still get 35-45 which beats 2003-2007.


Or you know, we could also factor in coaching, since the GM is responsible for picking the talent and the coaches are responsible for developing that talent, developing the schemes, developing the gameplans and keeping the team focused and motivated.

Its not like GMs pick players and they go do the rest themselves.

Ireland has his warts, but nothing is as baffling as a coaching staff that seemed unable to do something as simple as adjust a snap count that everyone else, including the fans watching on TV, had caught on to early in the season.

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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
Add in no in game adjustments especially when we had the lead...NE, Carolina.


Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:42 pm
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Post Re: A Look at Dolphins Draft History Post Shula
Rich wrote:
Ireland has his warts, but nothing is as baffling as a coaching staff that seemed unable to do something as simple as adjust a snap count that everyone else, including the fans watching on TV, had caught on to early in the season.


Correct, and you have to wonder what Miami would have done if Ireland got his wish to hire Mike McCoy. The two coaches under Ireland were not selected by him and it appears (don't know for sure) that what he drafted was system based. He didn't have coaches who could simply take talent and mold it to their system.

I'd still argue if Tannehill played with the 2011 offense he'd have some very good success.


Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:43 pm
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