AQNOR wrote:
Finster wrote:
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I would have to guess that a lot of the hurries were him reaching his long arm in and moving the QB, like on the Flacco INT he forced, but those aren't quality hurries imo.
What you see from good pass rushers is getting past the man in front of them so you have a clean path to the QB, this doesn't guarantee a sack but if you consistently beat the guy in front of you it will lead to quality pressures and sacks, neither of DJs sacks were had like that, both were coverage sacks, one of which was a 15yard face mask penalty.
QB hits is a telling stat here, with only 7 hurries Shelby had 3 hits, with 18 DJ had only 4, Wake had twice the amount of hurries but 4 times the amount of hits, this is because DJ isn't getting past his man.
I hope your right Dave, I hope he is a beast, but from what I saw from him in college and then last year, where I saw exactly the same flaws, I don't have a lot of faith.
A forced INT is not a quality hurry? I don't think I understand your definition of a quality hurry. imo anytime you can make the qb move off his spot, flush him out of the pocket or throw it before he is ready is a good thing or a quality hurry. Disrupting his timing and making the qb uncomfortable hopefully leading to bad decisions are good things to my way of thinking.
I appreciate your reply, but let me try to clarify what I was saying, first off I agree, any QB hurry is a good thing, and sometimes these types of hurries end up being big plays, a strip sack, INT or incompletion, what I meant by quality hurries is not the outcome of a particular play, it's the bulk of his hurries are reach ins, that he rarely beats the man in front of him and has a clear path to the QB.
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I think I see a fair amount of sacks coming from good pass rushers while they are still engaged with a blocker and pushes him into or by the qb and makes an athletic play to lunge at the qb. I would think that a clean run at the qb would be more rare but I have no stats to back that up.
It's true that there are sacks while the defender is still engaged, we have a quality pass rusher in Wake, now Wake will get reach in hurries, sacks while he is engaged, but these are gravy that goes with the meat, because Wake does beat the man in front him and get clear paths to the QB, this is why he has so many hurries and more importantly, hits, you know those plays where he's coming and the QB gets rid of the ball and WHAMO, QB is on the ground, this is what I mean by quality hurries, I probably should say high quality hurries, which is what you get from quality pass rushers.
To clarify, you don't actually need the WHAMO to have a high quality hurry, that is the highest, but if your clean path to the QB forces him to get rid of it that is also what I would consider a high quality hurry, it really just is beating the man in front of you and getting that path, regardless of the out come, because sometimes those hurries end up as TDs, that doesn't take away from the job that player did, it's the flip side of a low quality hurry turning into a big play.
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I am not sure what you mean by consistently (more often than not?). If that is combined with the previous statement in your sentence of "getting past the man in front of them so you have a clean path to the QB" I don't think any current players in the nfl are preforming to your standards.
When I say consistently I mean it happens in nearly every game, and it happens sporadically throughout the game, there are no players that do it more often than not, but you can count on Wake getting past his man at least a few times a game, some games less some games more, but most games it happens a few times, I remember 1 from DJ last year, which does coincide with his hit stats, 4, 2 sacks, the Flacco INT and the 1 high quality hurry.
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I am not sure if you are like me or not but sometimes I form a positive or negative opinion,for whatever reason, of a player and tend to look for the things that support my initial opinion. I try to guard against it and can be successful when I realize what I am doing.
I wonder if it is possible that, on this occasion, it may have happened to you as regards this player?
Fair enough, we are all human after all, but I don't think thats the case here, maybe it's like Mak said and he gets a pass because he was injured, personally I don't put too much on that because he never looked injured nor did he ever seem to favor 1 arm, and pass rushing power is done mostly with your lower body, upper body is used more for position and lower body is where the power and speed come from, especially with the type of player he is, bull rushers use more upper body strength, but still most of the power comes from the lower body.
I do pride myself on looking at things as objectively as I can, I consider myself a realist, I seek the truth in all things, i am not always right, and I don't have a problem admitting it if I was wrong, the knowledge is much more important to me, with DJ he has exhibited what he did in college, which really wasn't much, I watched a lot of tape on him from college and saw what we saw last year, bad against the run and a mediocre pass rusher, and he was much more hype than substance.
73----48--121--29.0--14.5 ---0---0---0----2----0---0---0---4
T------A---TT---TFL----S ---INT-----------PD---FR----------FF
104---77--181--50.5--33.0---1---3---3.0--12----1---0---0--10
Here are DJs and Von Millers #s from college, like Tomlin likes to say, the standard is the standard, so if we are giving up 2 potential starters, I would like to get a guy that was a beast in college, a man among boys, a guy who is "playing in the back field", VM was that guy, DJ was not, so think about it, we gave up more to get DJ than Denver did to get VM, he only cost them 1 draft pick.
DJ imo is a hype player like Vernon Gholston, not comparing them as players, just saying that both are more hype than substance, so with what we saw last year, combined with what he did or didn't do in college, I think there is plenty of basis for my opinion on DJ, why am I to expect a guy who did not get a lot of sacks in college to become a good pass rusher, because the vast majority of players who did not get a lot of sacks in college don't get a lot of sacks at a higher level of play.
As I said I do appreciate your reply, I hope I have clarified my position on DJ to you and everyone else, I do hope it changes in the future and he is one of the rare guys that actually improves his production from college, but based on what I've seen so far I don't have a lot of faith, but I do love the civil debate!
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