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 Ireland likes Ginn 
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Post Ireland likes Ginn
Finally! Somebody agrees with me! :bravo:

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports/ ... r_i_1.html


Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:43 am
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
... then throw it to him deep. At least try to use his skills as a receiver. Maybe even some slants.

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:49 am
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
Amen Dave!!!

That's what I have been saying all year long! Did you see how he burned by Revis in the first Jets game??? How we aren't throwing at least 4-5 bombs to him per game is mind-boggling. Makes me question Dan Henning's knowledge. He is a PLAYMAKER, let him MAKE PLAYS!

You can't teach SPEED!


Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:52 am
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
There were several plays I saw that ginn was going deep, but henne went the other way. I think Henne was trying to play it safe in his first year, maybe taking a little too much advice from Penny, and going with the intermediate routes as opposed to the risky deep ball.

Ginn has a unique set of skills, if he weren't drafted so high I'm sure everybody would be in love with the guy.

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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
I would not read too much into this. Ireland could just be trying to work on Ginn's confidence or building up his value, in their eyes, when it comes time to talk trade possibilities.

Wasn't Sporano complimenting Pasqualoni just days before they fired him?


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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
jammer wrote:
I would not read too much into this.


According to Curt at phins.com, that interview was actually given about a month an a half ago. Sparano may be scratching his head reading this for all we know;)

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:17 pm
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
Instead of the Pat White plays maybe Henne should be instructed to throw the ball deep a few times a game? Just a thought.


Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:59 pm
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
AQNOR wrote:
Instead of the Pat White plays maybe Henne should be instructed to throw the ball deep a few times a game? Just a thought.



:yay: I wonder if Sparano really restricted how much Henning could do with the deep passing game most of the season trying to minimize turnovers. I think they thought the running game and Wildcat offense would produce much more consistenty. I felt like they really opened things up in the last few games.

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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
:hithead: :hithead:

:war: :war:

I hate Ted Ginn....
Throw it to him deep? Are you insane? Have you forgotten already? He dropped many balls put in his hands, critical plays batched by his butter hands...

Please NO, please dont forget already :cry:

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:50 pm
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
10acjed wrote:
:hithead: :hithead:

:war: :war:

I hate Ted Ginn....
Throw it to him deep? Are you insane? Have you forgotten already? He dropped many balls put in his hands, critical plays batched by his butter hands...

Please NO, please dont forget already :cry:


Dude, I watched EVERY game and have them all TIVO'd. Yes, I am a loser. Ginn did not drop as many passes as people think. In fact Dwayne Bowe who MANY Dolphins fans wanted in the worst way, dropped the most in the NFL. Look at this list, Ginn dropped 9 passes, which is less than 1 per game. Bowe and Vernon Davis dropped 11. I still argue that changing from soft-tossing Penny to rocket firing Henne messed him up. In the last several games he caught everything. I don't say he is a #1 WR, but he can be very serviceable as a #2. Like Devery Henderson.

http://stats.mercurynews.com/fb/leaders ... =Receiving


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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
dolphinjim wrote:
Ginn did not drop as many passes as people think.


Ted Ginn was tied for 1st in wide receiver drops with 10.

http://profootballfocus.com/by_position ... numgames=1

Dwayne Bowe had 9.

But the fact is that Ginn had fewers passes thrown his way and he dropped a much migher percentage than the rest of those guys.

Yes, he displayed a really bad case of the dropsies, especially during the 1st half of the season.

Quote:
I still argue that changing from soft-tossing Penny to rocket firing Henne messed him up.


That may indeed be the case for him AND Bess. But the fact remains that the two biggest drops of the season by Ginn were Pennington passes against the Colts.

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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
Rich wrote:

That may indeed be the case for him AND Bess. But the fact remains that the two biggest drops of the season by Ginn were Pennington passes against the Colts.


And it was his best performance of the year. That game he actually had 11 receptions for over 100 yards. The obvious transition of QB's is a factor in the equation, but I ask you this:

We have a need for a true deep threat # 1 WR correct? Most agree...

We currently have:
Ted Ginn - 38 rec, 454 yards, 11.9yd avg, 1 TD
Devone Bess - 76 rec, 758 yards, 10yd avg, 2 TD
Greg Camarillo - 50 rec, 552 yards, 11.0yd avg, 0 TD (caught over 75% of the passes thrown to him)
Brian Hartline - 31 rec, 506 yards, 16.3yd avg, 3 TD

as the starting WR's. THis system brings 4 WR's, 2 TE's, and 4 HB's to the game.

So if we add a true # 1 WR, who do you see as the weakest link in our WR corps?

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Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:12 am
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
I'd hate to say it... but from those stats you'd have to get rid of Camarillo. He's very consistent and reliable... but Bess, Cam and Hartline are very much the same style of players... at least Ginn brings that speed element to the equation... the addition of a true #1 might lead to the loss of Camarillo.


Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:20 am
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
I would agree, I don't see Camarillo bringing anything to the table that we don't already have.


Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:38 am
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
The odd man out would be determined in camp. And two years removed from an ACL tear, I do not think the odd man out would be Camarillo. If we get a true #1, unless he changes his game quite a bit, the odd man out would be Ginn.

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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
Rich wrote:
The odd man out would be determined in camp. And two years removed from an ACL tear, I do not think the odd man out would be Camarillo. If we get a true #1, unless he changes his game quite a bit, the odd man out would be Ginn.


So then we have zero speed at the position...


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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
We'd still have speed, we just wouldn't have a top 5 speed guy in the NFL. Brian Hartline has some speed and deep ball ability. If a true #1 is acquired chances are it will be someone who brings some speed to the table, maybe just not Ginn speed.


Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:14 am
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
That said I still think allowing another team to sign Bess and forfeit pick(s) to us or trading Camarillo's ability and very reasonable contract might be more attractive to other teams, if we are talking about taking one guy out of the crowd.


Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:16 am
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
U don't cut speed, you work it into your gameplan.


Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:22 am
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
IamPZ wrote:
So then we have zero speed at the position...


Where has the blistering speed been in Arizona the past few years with Boldin and Fitzgerald?

Who is the speed merchant in Indy's passing game?

Speed is nice, but not the biggest requirement, especially if you have a player like Ginn who still doesn't know how to use his speed appropriately as it pertains to route running.

Besides, who is to say the #1 WR we would hypothetically get doesn't bring that speed?

Lastly, if you're the coach of this team and in training camp you have Cam, Bess an Hartline catching everything thrown their way and Ginn continuing to be inconsistent, do you still choose Ginn over one of those other guys just because he can run fast in a straight line?

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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
dolphinjim wrote:
U don't cut speed, you work it into your gameplan.


I throw the same question to you as I did to PZ. If you are the coach of this team during training camp and you have Bess, Cam and Hartline catching everything thrown their way and you continue having Ginn playing soft and being inconsistent with virtually every facet of his game, would you still keep Ginn over one of those other guys when push comes to shove, just because he can run fast in a straight line?

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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
10acjed wrote:
:hithead: :hithead:

:war: :war:

I hate Ted Ginn....
Throw it to him deep? Are you insane? Have you forgotten already? He dropped many balls put in his hands, critical plays batched by his butter hands...

Please NO, please dont forget already :cry:


You hate Ginn ok. Maybe that fact has affected your ability to be reasonable and not to engage in needless attacks? Questioning peoples sanity or ability to remember things aside, I think throwing deep to Ginn last year instead of running the Pat White plays would have been the more profitable of those two options. Ginn does not drop everything, and just hitting on a few long plays like that can soften up defenses.

Quote:
I don't know what they're going to do with him," Duper said. "It would be a waste of talent if they don't do something with him because the kid can play. He just had a tough year. Maybe next year he'll come back and redeem himself."

Duper said he was surprised the Dolphins didn't use Ginn's speed to stretch the field more once Chad Henne took over in Week 3. Ginn had just two catches of longer than 19 yards after Henne's promotion: the 53-yard TD in the first Jets game and a 35-yard grab against the Texans. There was also a 62-yard TD against Houston that was wiped out by that tripping penalty on Lousaka Polite.

"Yeah, I’d throw the deep ball a little bit more to him," Duper said. "The more you throw the deep ball, the better it is."


http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_fo ... l+Blogs%29


Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:36 am
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
Rich wrote:
IamPZ wrote:
So then we have zero speed at the position...


Where has the blistering speed been in Arizona the past few years with Boldin and Fitzgerald?

Who is the speed merchant in Indy's passing game?

Speed is nice, but not the biggest requirement, especially if you have a player like Ginn who still doesn't know how to use his speed appropriately as it pertains to route running.

Besides, who is to say the #1 WR we would hypothetically get doesn't bring that speed?

Lastly, if you're the coach of this team and in training camp you have Cam, Bess an Hartline catching everything thrown their way and Ginn continuing to be inconsistent, do you still choose Ginn over one of those other guys just because he can run fast in a straight line?


Good points... I'm just a little bias towards keeping Ginn... even though he's ticked me off as much as the next guy from his performance... I'd like to see him be something...


Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:37 am
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
Fitzgerald, Garcon and Wayne are all fast.


Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:37 pm
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
Why is it that we have to get rid of one of them??

Have we forgotten of a guy named Pat Turner....?


Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:58 pm
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
IamPZ wrote:
I'd hate to say it... but from those stats you'd have to get rid of Camarillo. He's very consistent and reliable... but Bess, Cam and Hartline are very much the same style of players... at least Ginn brings that speed element to the equation... the addition of a true #1 might lead to the loss of Camarillo.


Camarillo was at 83.3 percent in ATT/Rec at one point late in the season. Bess was at 72.0 percent, Hartline wasnt listed as he never was the true starter. But Ginn was at 44.2 percent...

You can have all the speed in the world, but something is not clicking, it is painfully obvious. Whether its Henne overthrowing the deep routes, or throwing the ball too hard on the quick slants, or his ball position is off. Something has to be said when 2 of your receivers are at 72% and 83& and the 3rd is at 44% in completions...

If we are going to blame delivery, why are the other guys catching the ball so much more consistently?

This artical was posted on Nov 11. At that time Camarillo wa the most efficient WR in the NFL with 83%, the sad part is the coaching staff has all this hope for Ginn like many of us do (or have had for some like me) and he is getting all these balls thrown to him.

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/6052/camarillo-bess-among-best-in-catch-percentage

He had 43 attempts, with 19 catches and 6 drops.

I am sorry if it bothers you, but Ginn is just not a good WR..... You will hear this all off season when analysts are talking about the Dolphins needs.


And none of the 4 WR I had listed will stay on a practice squad like Pat Turner.

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Last edited by 10acjed on Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:05 pm
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
dolphinjim wrote:
Fitzgerald, Garcon and Wayne are all fast.


Wrong.

Fitzgerald ran a 4.63.

Garcon ran a 4.48.

Wayne ran a 4.46.

Those are not blazing fast times like Ginn's supposed sub 4.3 time.

I mean they are fast compared to the average person, but when you compare those three guys to speed merchants like Ginn, Desean Jackson, Derrius Heyward-Bey... you're talking about a different of more than 1/10th of a 2nd, which is substantial.

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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
Rich wrote:
dolphinjim wrote:
Fitzgerald, Garcon and Wayne are all fast.


Wrong.

Fitzgerald ran a 4.63.

Garcon ran a 4.48.

Wayne ran a 4.46.

Those are not blazing fast times like Ginn's supposed sub 4.3 time.

I mean they are fast compared to the average person, but when you compare those three guys to speed merchants like Ginn, Desean Jackson, Derrius Heyward-Bey... you're talking about a different of more than 1/10th of a 2nd, which is substantial.

I don't care what Garcon ran...that guy does have blazing speed. Maybe not Ginn speed, but he does have real good speed non the less.

Wayne can move too.


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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
Phins Rock wrote:
I don't care what Garcon ran...that guy does have blazing speed. Maybe not Ginn speed, but he does have real good speed non the less.

Wayne can move too.


Neither guy has blazing speed. Perhaps quickness, but there is a difference.

Ginn has blazing speed, but lacks quickness.

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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
In my book anything sub 4.5 is fast. I actually thought Fitz was faster than that.


Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:19 pm
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
Rich wrote:
Phins Rock wrote:
I don't care what Garcon ran...that guy does have blazing speed. Maybe not Ginn speed, but he does have real good speed non the less.

Wayne can move too.


Neither guy has blazing speed. Perhaps quickness, but there is a difference.

Ginn has blazing speed, but lacks quickness.

Wayne is one of the quickest route runners in the league which is what makes him great...but he does have enough speed to get in behind a D, Rich.

Not maybe DB's can stick with Garcon either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcw3TYaB43Q

1:25 in that video, Garcon beats Rodgers-Cromartie, maybe the fastest CB in the NFL, on a straight line go.


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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
Getting behind defenses is not necessarily a matter of speed. Jerry Rice did it his entire career and was not a speed merchant. Cris Carter did it his entire career and was not a speed merchant.

And I saw Reggie Wayne's entire college career and trust me, he is not a speed merchant.

All three are/were very good route runners who sell their routes, get the DBs going one way, change directions and create space.

Speed is not required to get behind defenses. Route running, which includes the ability to sell the route to misdirect the corner, is.

I can't see the video because I am at work, so I can't comment on it. But one clip does not prove anything. Even Oronde Gadsden (actually in his first NFL game) has beaten a defensive back over the top.

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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
Ginn blew by Darrelle Revis...TWICE! Not too many WRs can say that.


Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:33 pm
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
dolphinjim wrote:
Ginn blew by Darrelle Revis...TWICE! Not too many WRs can say that.


When was the 2nd time?

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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
Rich wrote:
dolphinjim wrote:
Ginn blew by Darrelle Revis...TWICE! Not too many WRs can say that.


When was the 2nd time?

I was wondering the same thing.

In any case, I'm not sure why we are argueing how fast Garcon is. lol...but in any case you do not need a 4.3 guy at WR.

I agree with what you were saying Rich. Ginn is a good asset to have, but you can't keep Ginn if he is continueing his inconsistency in TC, and it comes down to him and Camarillo.


Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:39 pm
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
I was not including Garcon when I brought up Indy anyway. He was a rookie this past year. Before he was there, the Colts were tearing it up anyway. Even when Marvin Harrison lost a step.

My whole point is as you said, you don't need a speed guy to have a successful passing attack.

And even then, Fitzgerald and Boldin are by no means fast. Boldin runs a 4.7 and Fitz runs a 4.6. Speed is not a requirement.

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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
It would be oh so sweet though if Ginn could wake up and smell the coffee.

Maybe he should spend the offseason watching DeSean Jackson tape??


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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
IamPZ wrote:
It would be oh so sweet though if Ginn could wake up and smell the coffee.

Maybe he should spend the offseason watching DeSean Jackson tape??


Maybe. Jackson IS what Ginn was SUPPOSED to be.

But the difference between the two, in my opinion, is mental makeup.

Ginn simply hasn't shown that he has IT between the ears, while Jackson has shown IT from the moment he stepped on the field.

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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
Rich wrote:
IamPZ wrote:
It would be oh so sweet though if Ginn could wake up and smell the coffee.

Maybe he should spend the offseason watching DeSean Jackson tape??


Maybe. Jackson IS what Ginn was SUPPOSED to be.

But the difference between the two, in my opinion, is mental makeup.

Ginn simply hasn't shown that he has IT between the ears, while Jackson has shown IT from the moment he stepped on the field.


No doubt.

Jackson is the cocky kid who gets all the girls.

Ginn is scared to talk to a girl.


Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:11 pm
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Post Re: Ireland likes Ginn
LOL, I don't think he is scared, he just knows he'll stutter and take longer to get the words out.

FYI I believe Ginn has a learning disability, which is part of the reason many thought he would take longer to develop.

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