The rest of the article at the Palm Beach Post


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While i agree with Dan Marino, the problem is we dont have any other threat at WR to take advantage of Ginn being on the field. If you put a guy like Reggie Wayne next to Ginn he will have a break out year! But with no true #1 WR all hes going to be is mediocre

Unwritten rule: Always agree with Don Shula and Dan Marino.

couldn't agree more with the man

Yup. And he's not wrong. With a real #1 WR Ginn is a lot more dangerous. So...let's get one.

And they all said.... AMEN

Yes, his speed is valuable, no doubt. But until he learns how to carry a football and know when to go for the big play or just fight for the yards you're given, I will say he's more of a liability than a commodity.

Someone that is going to lose you yards, lose the football, and waste downs with drops is not someone I want on my team; no matter how strong, how fast, or how explosive he is.

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true enough, but I do not believe those qualities are who Ginn truely is. I don't mind Ginn getting down or getting out of bounds. Matter of fact of the top of my head there was only one time I was truely upset that he did not go get the first down, and that was in 2008 when he ducked out a yard short on a 3rd down.

There is no evidence of that not being who the real Ginn is. Ducking out of bounds or going down doesn't bother me in the slightest except for when you said, on 3rd down. You gotta pick that yard up.
What upsets me is him dancing around on kickoffs and going backwards when there is no play to be made. It's one thing to do that on a punt return, but getting to at least the 20 on a kickoff is imperative for an offense's psychy. His drops and holding the football way out like a hot dog in a bunch of hungry dogs is unacceptable. I don't believe I've ever seen him tuck the ball away.

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that is why I said I was upset



true, but he consistently made it to the 20



People hold on to this belief that Ginn drops the ball. He had 2-3 bad weeks in a row and everyone holds onto that. I don't think that is who Ginn is.

Did he have a fumbling problem? I don't think he does or has ever.

Yeah I know that's why you said that, I was agreeing. Ending up on the 15 or closer to the endzone is unacceptable. Ginn did that way too often.
As for his dropsies, you need to take a look at that video. Every gets their drops in a season. What, maybe 10 in a year is a lot for most guys in a season? Ginn got that in the 2-3 weeks you were talking about and then was benched....and it's not like those 2-3 weeks were the only time he's had a dropping the ball problem. If you really think GInn doesn't have a problem catching the football, take a look at that video that has been posted on here multiple times. Even most of the catches he makes slam into his chest/body...that's ridiculous.
As for his fumble problems, he's had a few slapped out on kickoffs that he or someone else has managed to recover, and he holds the ball out there for anyone to take...it's an accident waiting to happen. I remember Wes Welker use to carry the ball like GInn and I said he's going to lose that ball, and then one punt return he did lose it, and he never held the ball out there again. Ginn on the other hand, loses it (from his possession, Miami kept possession) and he continues to hold it like that.
I really see no maturation in this guy. Speed? Yes. What else does he bring?

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speed kills, we just have not used him like we need to

I keep hearing this, "we have not used him the right way/like we need to/properly...etc." Exactly what else is the coaching staff supposed to do? He runs deep routes, sometimes he's open sometimes he's not. I've seen him run slants, hooks, posts...is there something else I'm missing? We have guys who run short patterns and get open. Maybe they aren't attracting double teams and a new number one will get Ginn "more open." But you can't say he hasn't been used right. Do we want Henne to airmail 10-15 passes per game? Is that the only way to get it to Ginn? He does have trouble getting off the line which prevents him being constantly effective down field. I guess I don't know what else we expect.

again another poster holding on to beliefs that just can not be backed up. Did Ginn have trouble getting off the line his first year? yes. Has he improved? dramatically. Should we airmail 10-15 passes per game? No, but we should airmail more than 5-7 a year, it should be 4-5 a game. Ginn has proved nobody can run with him when Henne launches it, so give it a rip. Did Ginn drop some key balls a few weeks in a row? yes. Does he drop the ball week in and week out? No, he had a bad month.

A bad month? A few weeks in a row? Talk about not knowing your facts.

2009
He had two drops against Indianapolis 9-21, two drops against San Diego 9-27, three drops against New Orleans 10-25, two drops against New England 11-08

2008
two drops against New England 11/23, two drops against St Louis 11/30, a drop against Buffalo 12/07, a drop against San Francisco 12/14

He has 11 fumbles in 3 years...he's lost one. That's not including his mishap against Baltimore in the playoffs that essentially ended the season.

A few weeks? Try eight weeks of drops.

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Don't try to be condascending to make your point, it doesn't work. Its like someone raising their voice in a debate thinking that equates to them being correct. Ginn catches two deep balls thrown by Henne, one counts one doesnt, and suddenly its a given he will burn every corner on him? You still haven't countered my point. What would you like the coaches to do differently with Ginn? He's running the deep patterns you suggest, Henne just doesnt have confidence in throwing it deep to him. That is not the team using him wrong, that's his poor performance leadning to a lack of confidence in him. But feel free to label me just another poster who has no idea and can't back anything up. Do you have any other evidence to suggest he will be a consistent deep threat? I'm all ears.

A bad month? A few weeks in a row? Talk about not knowing your facts.

2009
He had two drops against Indianapolis 9-21, two drops against San Diego 9-27, three drops against New Orleans 10-25, two drops against New England 11-08

2008
two drops against New England 11/23, two drops against St Louis 11/30, a drop against Buffalo 12/07, a drop against San Francisco 12/14

He has 11 fumbles in 3 years...he's lost one. That's not including his mishap against Baltimore in the playoffs that essentially ended the season.

A few weeks? Try eight weeks of drops.



Hey Iowa ... lets just say that Ginn only has bad months that end with an er.

Those other months he is a stud!

My bad, I absolutely was not trying to be condescending. I believe I did counter your point when I said I feel we need to launch the ball out to him 4-5 times a game instead of 4-5 times a season.

I'm not saying Ginn has not dropped some key balls, I'm just saying 3 games does not make a player. I can give you one great play by Ginn for every bad play. Granted it definitely shouldn't be a 1 for 1 deal, but I truely believe Ginn is going to be a key part of our "explosive offense" in the near future.

I don't know what that means, but if it means Ginn has only had 3 bad games, perhaps you should do some research, or at the very least, read my post above.


Do it then.

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11 fumbles 3 years. Just over 3 fumbles a year. And just about 0.3 recovered by the other team per year. I'll take it.

9 drops in 2009. He was credited with a drop against NE at the end of the game but there isn't many WR's who would have made that catch.

Just to put it all perspective for you. 2009 drops - Vernon Davis 11 - Santonio Holmes 10 - Dallas Clark 9 - Terrell Owens 9. But your right, lets just hang our guy. And that is just the way it is, as long as he is in a phins uni he is our guy. So you can rag on our guys as much as you want but that does not help out at all.

We'll agree to disagree. I realize tone doesnt come across accurately in posts so no worries.

My point is that they can throw the ball deep 4-5 per game, it still doesn't mean they are using Ginn differently or the correct way. That is a decision made by Henne, and is confidence related. You need to bring in someone who can draw coverage away from him. He needs room to work and is not very good at fighting for the ball.

either do I

If it is a decision of Henne to not launch it down the field to Ginn then I can live with that. If it is Hennings decision, then I can't live with that.

Are you kidding me? Allow ME to put your ridiculous statement into perspective. Holmes had 79 grabs 1200 yards 5 TD's, Davis had 78 catches for 900 yards 13 TD's, Clark 100 catches 1100 yards and 10 scores. Owens is terrible.

What did Ginn have? 38 catches, 400 yards, and 1 score. Not even half of any of those guys...and you want to compare his drops to them? That's ridiculous.

You said you could list just as many good plays from Ginn as he has bad ones. i am certainly waiting for that list.

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Ginn caught 48.7% of the passes targeted for him in 2009 (38 of 78)
And in his 3 year career he has caught 52.8% of the passes targeted to him. (128 of 242)

Camarillo caught 70.4% of the passes targeted for him in 2009 (50 of 71)
And in his 3 year career he has caught 68.9% of the passes targeted to him. (113 of 164)

Bess caught 67.2% of the passes targeted for him in 2009 (76 of 113)
And in his 2 year career he has caught 69.1% of the passes targeted to him. (130 0f 188)

Stats obtained from http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/footba ... ST_NM.html

The bottom line is Ginn is not even close to Camarillo or Bess in passes caught vesus opportunities and neither of them earns anywhere near what Ginn does. How long can Miami tie up the kind of money they have invested in Ginn for such limited success as a pass catching WR? He is not aggressive in going to get the ball, seeks the sideline instead of the extra yard & only catches 52.8% of the passes targeted for him. He is mediocre at best in his pass catching ability. He is a good kick off and punt return man, but thats about it through the first 3 years. The numbers don't lie.

numbers are fun, especially in baseball. But do they lie? Everyday. As I've posted before. "there are 3 types of lies, 1 lies, 2 darn lies, 3 statistics" - Mark Twain

I know what those guys stats are, but the fact remains, everybody drops the ball. You can hang Ginn if you want, but I guarantee you will be eating your words soon enough.

here is your list


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and the bad:


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Lol...clearly your definition of good plays and routine plays are skewed. Let's recount this video shall we?

1- Good catch against the Patriots
2-Garbage time touchdown against the Giants
3-Simple drag against Oakland and immediately tackled. 5 yard gain.
4-30 some yard reverse for a score. Good play
5-Good return against the Broncos
6-Good job getting open, almost beating two defenders for a score against the Bills
7-A catch against the Browns after Lemon scrambles for his life for 12 minutes. More of a good play from Lemon, but for the sake of argument, I'll give you the routine catch
8-He catches the ball against the Texans after a great playaction
9-A good return against Baltimore
10-A great punt return against the Eagles
11-A fantastic adjustment to an underthrown ball against the Jets
12-A great reverse against Oakland
13-15- 3 straight returns for TD's that don't count
16-A touchdown catch
17-Outstanding corner touchdown grab. Slightly pushes off...I thought that'd be a play that'd propel him to the next level.
18-Great catch against Seattle
19-Great on the shoulder catch against the Bills
20-A catch that hits his stomach...great throw in between 4 defenders against the Bills.
21-Almost a great play against the Bills, but fumbles the football...play negated.
22-A routine comeback route, great escape from Pennington
23-A preseason punt return touchdown

So, judging from that list, there are 10 outstanding plays, 7 plays that were either against backups or just plain routine plays, and 4 plays that didn't count due to penalties or exhibition game.

The second video, sure, nice play...showed his speed.

So say I give you those 7 routine plays, that's 18 plays made by Ginn.
Then I'll give you his 2 returns against the Jets this year...that's 20 plays made by Ginn.

Take that versus his 15 drops in 2008 and 2009, and his 11 fumbles...that's 20 good plays, 26 bad plays.

26>20

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sorry Iowa, times up, I just vowed to not speak another word about Ginn Jr. until next season, I can no longer banter back and forth with you about this matter

I figured it was.

translation: Sorry Iowa, you're right.

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Ginn's base salary last year was $677,917.

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That's one of the weakest responses I have seen on these forums in a long, long time.

You failed to address any of the points given to you because you can't. Instead you hide behind someone else's "famous quote".

The problem is, those of us who saw all the games know that the stats accurately portray the quality of play Ginn displayed on the field. There's no famous quote for you to hide behind on that.

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While I don't really have a problem with anything you've posted here, I think what MT is referring to is that those stats quoted earlier do not tell the whole story. Ginn has not performed as he should and I'm not going to deny that, however I do think that the numbers are a bit misleading.
Ginn gets thrown to often over 20 yards, yet we have not had quarterbacks who throw the ball accurately over 20 yards since he has been here with the possible exception of Henne. Even Henne though has been quite inefficient at hitting receivers on the longer routes. So if you say Ginn was thrown to X amount of times, what those numbers don't tell you is how many of those passes were difficult or even out of reach for him to catch? Surely the further you throw down the field to a receiver the higher the odds of missing your target increase. If Ginn is thrown to further down the field ON AVERAGE than other receivers on the team, it only makes sense with the quarter backs we have had that Ginn would have less catches; thus the lower percentage in the stats.
Again, I'm not taking this argument to the extreme, I'm not defending Ginn to the bitter end, and I'm not saying that he doesn't need to improve. All I am saying is that the argument should be fair and while we can ding Ginn for many things, the stats don't always tell the complete story.

The stats bring documented proof to the notion that Ginn doesn't catch as many passes sent his way compared to the other receivers. Instead of giving my opinion after having watched 3 years of this, I provided the stats. The stats say a lot. They say that the other two receivers have been more successful taking adavantage of the opportunities they had when targeted. The stats show that it isn't one bad year for Ginn but a trend of inconsistency over 3 years. I also believe the stats show a lack of confidence in Ginn from Henning and Henne in the the times that Ginn is targeted. I am sick to death of hearing about Ginn's potential to become a #1 WR. Perhaps Ginn will someday become a decent #2 or #3 WR. But I am tired of watching the Dolphins struggle offensively because they don't have a legit #1 WR while depending on him to fill that role. IMO Ginn will only contribute consistently as a return man in the NFL. Speed is great if you can take advantage of having it. At the WR position that requires hanging onto the balls thrown your way and making the tough catches. And over the last 3 years Ginn has shown no consistency in either of those areas. I have no problem with Ginn remaining a Dolphin, I just believe he is never going to fill the role as a #1 WR and that the Phins need to upgrade big time at that position.

I can't tell you the last time I missed a dolphin game.

I didn't know I had been hiding regarding this issue.

I can't believe I just replied to your asinine post.

You have been hearing this? I have never heard this.