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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:01 am 
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randylvc wrote:
The more I think about this the more I like the trade..

it's almost like we used hard knocks to our advantage..

the first time they say "Ah look VD is playing better" we trade him...


What sense does it make to allow other teams to witness the conditioning issue first? At that point you're already incriminating the player before you attempt to trade him .... a trade which should've occurred much earlier in the offseason (since they were obviously premeditating it) in order to help bolster other pathetic areas like our WR core.

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I have np with this trade... I don't exspect to have a good season anyone.. We are rebuilding. or retooling or whatever.. call it what you will but we are not ready to run with the big dogs.. you might as well get what you can and take that 50 mill cap we have next season... and do some real damage with it..


$50 million for a coach who has openly lamented how he prefers the draft over free agency to bring in his own kind of players. So I'm not gonna go ape over that cap room.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:03 am 
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For those saying they don't mind the trade because we are rebuilding makes no sense. If we are "rebuilding" why trade a 24 year old former 1st round pick CB that hasn't reached his potential? He came in the league at 21 years old! He is still young guys and sometimes that brings immaturity but lets not get it twisted and act as if he is some type of diva or problem child his whole career.

But at the end of the day, Jeff Ireland says they are NOT "rebuilding" so that can't even be used as an excuse for trading Vontae. I don't even care if we end up getting a WR because of this deal. Because now we are WEAK at CB! Are you really relying on Nolan Carroll!? And Sean Smith has looked good but he has yet to prove himself on Sunday's as well! Vontae was the most consistent CB on this team the last 3 years.

BAD MOVE!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:24 am 
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rodneyfaile wrote:
Here in 2012 V. Davis was not our best DB. He lost his starting spot


Don't believe anything in the preseason. I promise you VD would have been starting Game 1. The Dolphins were trying to give him an attitude adjustment.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:40 am 
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Omar Kelly
about 3 hours ago
I don't agree with everything Joe Philbin is doing, but I do firmly believe he has a right to assemble HIS team.

When you are in a position of leadership you need to make sure everyone under you believes in your vision, and will fight for your cause. They need to be on your team.

Philbin comes from a strong two parent family in Green Bay. That's a rock solid organization with a tremendously strong fan base. What he married into was a Dolphins organization on its fourth marriage, with children from three different fathers. Some of those kids have personality disorders and depression, some have drug problems, some who have been abused. This franchise is/and has been a mess for a while.

Philbin has the right to do whatever he believes will build it right. BUT, he has to understand the bodies will begin to stack up with each move, and the trust HAS BEEN damaged. The only thing that can heal those issues is winning. If the wins don't come, and progress isn't shown, more bodies will start to stack up.

Philbin's biggest issue is he hasn't won, and there is no evidence of progress.



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:40 am 
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TheCarver13 wrote:
For those saying they don't mind the trade because we are rebuilding makes no sense. If we are "rebuilding" why trade a 24 year old former 1st round pick CB that hasn't reached his potential? He came in the league at 21 years old! He is still young guys and sometimes that brings immaturity but lets not get it twisted and act as if he is some type of diva or problem child his whole career.


Were Tennessee Titan fans saying the same thing about Vince Young?

I know his antics were far worse but if the coaching staff doesn't believe you can be fixed then your draft status doesn't matter. It makes perfect sense in the eyes of the people doing the rebuilding.

I think a lot more went into this decision then just showing up out of shape or making dumb comments.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:44 am 
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Big Dave wrote:
rodneyfaile wrote:
Here in 2012 V. Davis was not our best DB. He lost his starting spot


Don't believe anything in the preseason. I promise you VD would have been starting Game 1. The Dolphins were trying to give him an attitude adjustment.


ANYTHING?

I don't believe EVERYTHING in the preseason, but I do believe SOME THINGS. Like when I see an out of shape, slow CB, giving half an effort, and with an attitude problem.

I believe Sean Smith has taken his game to the next level.

Anything that contains the phrase "would have been" is more likely to not hold up under scrutiny.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:13 am 
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Rich wrote:
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Giants won the super bowl with pass rush, not elite corners.


You're right about the 49ers but you missed the mark with the Giants. Aaron Ross and Corey Webster are no slouches. Ross is a former first round pick, Webster a former second. They also had solid safeties in Phillips and Rolle.



Corey Webster is solid but Ross gets burnt a ton, which is why he is no longer a Giant. The Giants success comes up front, which is what teams should strive to replicate. The giants lose corners to injury every year, yet still have one of the more dominating defense.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:23 am 
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The Davis supporters here give the same excuses for him every year, pretending that maybe one year he will grow up and change....guess what guys, it was never gonna happen.
I don't care if he's 'only' 24, he was coming into his 4th year. I would hope that a 4 year pro would have his crap together by now.

Rebuilding doesnt just mean getting rid of older players, it also means cleaning out all the bad attritudes, regardless of age.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:26 am 
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Im definitely not a v davis supporter. I like that we got a 2nd round pick for him. I dont think he was buying into Philbins philosophy. But I have never been impressed with Nolan Caroll either.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:32 am 
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AdamHBeasley And they might be swinging for the fences, and not settling for some of the lesser names you hear. More later...
3 minutes ago · reply · retweet · favorite
AdamHBeasley I'm hearing that the Ireland was not blowing smoke when he told me yesterday that the Dolphins are absolutely in the market to trade for WR.


https://twitter.com/intent/user?screen_ ... amHBeasley

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AdamHBeasley One thing I can say with certainty: At least one receiver will be on the team's opening-day roster that is not with the team now. Maybe more


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:24 am 
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https://twitter.com/intent/user?screen_ ... amHBeasley

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AdamHBeasley One thing I can say with certainty: At least one receiver will be on the team's opening-day roster that is not with the team now. Maybe more

Geesh. That is going out on a limb.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:32 am 
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Can we start the Larry Fitzgerald for Matt Moore rumors now, have some pie and chips, and sing Kumbaya?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:42 am 
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Dphins4me wrote:
https://twitter.com/intent/user?screen_name=AdamHBeasley

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AdamHBeasley One thing I can say with certainty: At least one receiver will be on the team's opening-day roster that is not with the team now. Maybe more

Geesh. That is going out on a limb.


Yay, someone elses roster cut!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:52 am 
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NFLJunkie wrote:
Can we start the Larry Fitzgerald for Matt Moore rumors now, have some pie and chips, and sing Kumbaya?


That's reminiscent of some of the trade offers I get in the Dynasty League that I'm in. That won't happen.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:14 am 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
NFLJunkie wrote:
If I remember right, we had a lot of family guys on that 2007 team. ... and wow...way to spin Vontae into a backup. The minute he loses that Dolphin Jersey he is crap. LOL.


I know right ... LOL

Too bad his own secondary coach could be heard saying how good he thought VD could be on Hard Knocks.



is this the same coach that was bashing Vontae for his stupid play on tonite's episode when he pulled the Atlanta receiver to the ground? LOL


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:15 am 
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Too bad his own secondary coach could be heard saying how good he thought VD could be on Hard Knocks.


"Could be" means virtually nothing when someone does not show any maturity or ability to reach that potential.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:09 am 
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degs wrote:
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Too bad his own secondary coach could be heard saying how good he thought VD could be on Hard Knocks.


"Could be" means virtually nothing when someone does not show any maturity or ability to reach that potential.


Vontae is a great prospect...

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:47 am 
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No, Vontae was our best CB the last 3 years despite that child-like attitude. If Ireland is loading up to get a good WR, I'm all for it. If not, I think it was stupid.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:59 am 
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swerve13 wrote:
is this the same coach that was bashing Vontae for his stupid play on tonite's episode when he pulled the Atlanta receiver to the ground? LOL


Ya, so what of it? Just because he criticizes one play doesn't strip him of the previous comment about what he thought VD's talents.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:07 am 
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NFLJunkie wrote:
If Ireland is loading up to get a good WR, I'm all for it.

A 2nd Rd pick is not loaded up. No team is going to be weakening itself for a 2nd Rd pick, unless the player traded is not worth a 2nd Rd pick. Ala James Jones.

Total BS comment for appeasement.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:13 am 
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Dphins4me wrote:
NFLJunkie wrote:
If Ireland is loading up to get a good WR, I'm all for it.

A 2nd Rd pick is not loaded up. No team is going to be weakening itself for a 2nd Rd pick, unless the player traded is not worth a 2nd Rd pick. Ala James Jones.

Total BS comment for appeasement.


It doesn't mean the 2nd round pick is the trade chip. Having that extra pick means letting or 3rd or 4th rounder go for a player is easier to swallow.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:17 am 
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jammer wrote:

It doesn't mean the 2nd round pick is the trade chip. Having that extra pick means letting or 3rd or 4th rounder go for a player is easier to swallow.
Yeap & Miami will be getting a player worthy of a 5th or 6th Rd pick.

Remember how Miami had to overpay for Lamar Gordon at the start of the Yr?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:25 am 
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Dphins4me wrote:
jammer wrote:

It doesn't mean the 2nd round pick is the trade chip. Having that extra pick means letting or 3rd or 4th rounder go for a player is easier to swallow.
Yeap & Miami will be getting a player worthy of a 5th or 6th Rd pick.

Remember how Miami had to overpay for Lamar Gordon at the start of the Yr?


I do. I also remember Miami getting Fasano and Akin Ayodele for a 4th round pick and Jason Ferguson for a 6th Round pick under the same GM.

Ireland doesn't make desperate trades for players ala Gordon.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:36 am 
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jammer wrote:
I do. I also remember Miami getting Fasano and Akin Ayodele for a 4th round pick and Jason Ferguson for a 6th Round pick under the same GM.
Came in Apr., not late Aug.

jammer wrote:
Ireland doesn't make desperate trades for players ala Gordon.
No yet at least. If he ends up trading for Jones, anything more than a 5th is overpaying. I'd prefer he pick up Tori Gurley if he does not make the Packers, which is possible. Just being caught up in the numbers.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:44 am 
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Dphins4me wrote:
jammer wrote:
I do. I also remember Miami getting Fasano and Akin Ayodele for a 4th round pick and Jason Ferguson for a 6th Round pick under the same GM.
Came in Apr., not late Aug.


Not the point. He traded for value, which is exactly what he'll do here. If he sees no value he'll simply go to the waiver wire or free agents.

Teams will be looking to unload players to get something in return before Friday. Ireland will be dealing from a position of strength if a team wants to deal a WR, just like he did with a Dallas team that was looking to unload guys they no longer needed.

James Jones isn't a slouch. He's not as good as Jordy Nelson or Greg Jennings, but he's worth a mid round pick if he's a guy who gives Miami 50 catches and 5+ TDs per year for the next few seasons.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:55 am 
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jammer wrote:
Not the point. He traded for value, which is exactly what he'll do here. If he sees no value he'll simply go to the waiver wire or free agents.
That is the point. Apr trades are different than late Aug. trades. Teams in late Aug are getting ready for the season & are not going to give up a player who can help them win unless you overpay for the player & even then will not give up a stud player. If a player is traded in Aug. then the team had no interest in keeping him.

If Miami was a contending team, then Davis would not have been traded.

jammer wrote:
Teams will be looking to unload players to get something in return before Friday. Ireland will be dealing from a position of strength if a team wants to deal a WR, just like he did with a Dallas team that was looking to unload guys they no longer needed..
Teams know Miami is desperate. Ireland will be dealing from a weakness stand point, not strength.

Again, Apr. trades are not the same. Miami could have walked away from the deal & picked up a TE elsewhere, plus Dallas got to use the 4th Rd. pick right then, not wait till next yrs draft.


jammer wrote:
James Jones isn't a slouch. He's not as good as Jordy Nelson or Greg Jennings, but he's worth a mid round pick if he's a guy who gives Miami 50 catches and 5+ TDs per year for the next few seasons.

One of the highest drop rates for a Wr of catchable passes. If you want him to catch 50 passes, then he will need at least 61-63 catchable throws, based on past history of drops.

Drops & Wr position do not go together. I would not draft a Wr that comes with drop issues & I'm not talking one yr either.. Either they can catch or they cannot. Its why I love Denarius Moore in last year draft. He comes down with the ball.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:07 am 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
swerve13 wrote:
is this the same coach that was bashing Vontae for his stupid play on tonite's episode when he pulled the Atlanta receiver to the ground? LOL


Ya, so what of it? Just because he criticizes one play doesn't strip him of the previous comment about what he thought VD's talents.

Talent doesn't mean jack squat if not properly applied. You can have all-world talent but if you don't have discipline and drive, it doesn't mean squat. You can praise talent and still not approve of the player.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:42 am 
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Dphins4me wrote:
jammer wrote:
Not the point. He traded for value, which is exactly what he'll do here. If he sees no value he'll simply go to the waiver wire or free agents.
That is the point. Apr trades are different than late Aug. trades. Teams in late Aug are getting ready for the season & are not going to give up a player who can help them win unless you overpay for the player & even then will not give up a stud player. If a player is traded in Aug. then the team had no interest in keeping him.

If Miami was a contending team, then Davis would not have been traded.

jammer wrote:
Teams will be looking to unload players to get something in return before Friday. Ireland will be dealing from a position of strength if a team wants to deal a WR, just like he did with a Dallas team that was looking to unload guys they no longer needed..
Teams know Miami is desperate. Ireland will be dealing from a weakness stand point, not strength.

Again, Apr. trades are not the same. Miami could have walked away from the deal & picked up a TE elsewhere, plus Dallas got to use the 4th Rd. pick right then, not wait till next yrs draft.


jammer wrote:
James Jones isn't a slouch. He's not as good as Jordy Nelson or Greg Jennings, but he's worth a mid round pick if he's a guy who gives Miami 50 catches and 5+ TDs per year for the next few seasons.

One of the highest drop rates for a Wr of catchable passes. If you want him to catch 50 passes, then he will need at least 61-63 catchable throws, based on past history of drops.

Drops & Wr position do not go together. I would not draft a Wr that comes with drop issues & I'm not talking one yr either.. Either they can catch or they cannot. Its why I love Denarius Moore in last year draft. He comes down with the ball.


Trades aren't defined by the time of year, they are defined by individual situations. Dallas felt they got value before the draft for two guys not making a difference. Its not different than GB feeling they'll get value for a guy who's limited time on the field may hurt his trade value at a later date. That puts Ireland in a position of strength because Miami doesn't necessarily need Jones, they can just go to waivers if the demands are too high. Again, its Ireland's approach, not some textbook study of how trades should be conducted.

You couldn't be more incorrect about Davis being traded. Miami's stance is that everyone is on the block for the right price, regardless of what time of year it is. Had Indy reached out and offered a pick for him in April or June Miami would have pulled trigger if the value was there. Wouldn't matter if they were contenders because they feel they can replace just about anyone.

Brandon Marshall had a bad drop rate but he's still on the field. No one is saying Jones is the answer as a number 1 receiver, but if he can get open and catch 50% of his passes its better than current guys who can't get open and catch zero passes.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:47 am 
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jammer wrote:
Trades aren't defined by the time of year, they are defined by individual situations. Dallas felt they got value before the draft for two guys not making a difference.
Again they are. You would be hard pressed to provide me one late Aug trade where the player getting traded carried a ton of value. Dallas was salary dumping two under performing players.

jammer wrote:
Its not different than GB feeling they'll get value for a guy who's limited time on the field may hurt his trade value at a later date. That puts Ireland in a position of strength because Miami doesn't necessarily need Jones, they can just go to waivers if the demands are too high. Again, its Ireland's approach, not some textbook study of how trades should be conducted.
All of it will depend on if Miami is playing for 2012 or 2013. Miami would be better off going to the waiver wire than giving up anything for Jones.

jammer wrote:
You couldn't be more incorrect about Davis being traded. Miami's stance is that everyone is on the block for the right price, regardless of what time of year it is. Had Indy reached out and offered a pick for him in April or June Miami would have pulled trigger if the value was there. Wouldn't matter if they were contenders because they feel they can replace just about anyone.
That is BS on Miami's part. No team would not part with a stud player in Oct because someone was offering two 1st Rd, if that team was in the mix for a playoff spot. Miami would not have traded Davis this past Apr for a 2nd Rd. pick.


jammer wrote:
Brandon Marshall had a bad drop rate but he's still on the field. No one is saying Jones is the answer as a number 1 receiver, but if he can get open and catch 50% of his passes its better than current guys who can't get open and catch zero passes.
Not for a 3rd/4th Rd pick. Jones does not improve this team much. Also, BM had issues last year, not for his entire career, like Jones.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:51 am 
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Rock Sexton wrote:
swerve13 wrote:
is this the same coach that was bashing Vontae for his stupid play on tonite's episode when he pulled the Atlanta receiver to the ground? LOL


Ya, so what of it? Just because he criticizes one play doesn't strip him of the previous comment about what he thought VD's talents.


whatever helps your argument


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:58 am 
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Dropping the Ball

It won’t be a surprise that those with more opportunity have tended to drop the most balls. Indeed, if you look at Wes Welker, his 32 drops were second in the league over three years. The only wide receiver with more than him? New Bears receiver Brandon Marshall who led the way with 35 drops over three years. Chicago will be hoping that linking up with Jay Cutler will help calm this number down, but it’s worth noting that if you go back to 2008 Marshall had 16 drops in that year alone.

...

Drop Rate – The Bad

Now let’s get to the important number. Players like Marshall and Welker may have more drops than anyone else, but Welker doesn’t figure in the Bottom 15 of the 61 players who had at least 125 catchable balls thrown their way over the past three years, and Marshall was just in the Bottom 10

...


http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20 ... receivers/


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:08 am 
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I don't disagree that there might be a better waiver wire option or free agent option as opposed to trading for Jones. We won't know that until Friday so as of right now he presents probably the most realistic option if Ireland gets him for a bargain price.

If Indy offered Miami a 2nd round pick and a player or 3rd rounder in April I would bet Ireland would pull trigger so its not BS on their part. You don't deal top 20 or 30 players in the NFL, but Miami doesn't have anything close to that. Even Jake Long has slipped in reputation.

In terms of April vs August or whatever month I think you'd be hard pressed to show consistency anytime when concerning a player for picks. Teams dump attitude problems, bad contracts and excess depth whenever they deem it necessary. April just has a larger volume of trades because its picks for picks. Usually the start of the offseason (February/March) and the summer are when you see more player trades because teams have evaluated their situation after the prior season and after some Camp/Preseason.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:21 am 
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My larger point in this discussion is that I don't expect Ireland to do something desperate ie Lamar Gordon. You'd be hard pressed to give an example of him making such a deal. Even the Marshall trade played out for a while and he waited until he got the best possible value for what he was giving up.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:40 pm 
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jammer wrote:
I don't disagree that there might be a better waiver wire option or free agent option as opposed to trading for Jones. We won't know that until Friday so as of right now he presents probably the most realistic option if Ireland gets him for a bargain price.
IMO the only price I would consider Jones for is free.

jammer wrote:
If Indy offered Miami a 2nd round pick and a player or 3rd rounder in April I would bet Ireland would pull trigger so its not BS on their part. You don't deal top 20 or 30 players in the NFL, but Miami doesn't have anything close to that. Even Jake Long has slipped in reputation.

Miami can say they everyone is available right now, because of what you just said. They do not have anything close to that & they basically suck as a team, so they need to improve. If they ever reach the good level, then that everyone is available for the right price goes away.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:42 pm 
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jammer wrote:
My larger point in this discussion is that I don't expect Ireland to do something desperate ie Lamar Gordon. You'd be hard pressed to give an example of him making such a deal. Even the Marshall trade played out for a while and he waited until he got the best possible value for what he was giving up.

He feels secure in his job right now. Let him be in a win or lose your job ( As Speilman was in ) & you will see those type moves.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:55 pm 
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The Dolphins got a 2nd round pick for V Davis. I cant imagine him playing well enough to be worthy of a 1st round pick next year, so I think they made a good trade, a very good trade in fact. Sean Smith is taking over the role of best CB on the Dolphins. A 2nd round pick is pretty good for our #3 CB.

It was hard to watch that on Hard Knocks. I wish him all the best, and believe he can be a very good CB, but this decision will benefit the Dolphins. We will be glad we have that pic next year since we are rebuilding.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:14 pm 
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Dphins4me wrote:
jammer wrote:
My larger point in this discussion is that I don't expect Ireland to do something desperate ie Lamar Gordon. You'd be hard pressed to give an example of him making such a deal. Even the Marshall trade played out for a while and he waited until he got the best possible value for what he was giving up.

He feels secure in his job right now. Let him be in a win or lose your job ( As Speilman was in ) & you will see those type moves.


He didn't panic and overpay for Kyle Orton or Carson Palmer last offseason when it appeared both he and Sparano were on the hot seat to get a QB.

Has the NFL seen a Lamar Gordon type trade since the infamous trade?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:15 pm 
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Has the NFL seen a Lamar Gordon type trade since the infamous trade?

no


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:53 pm 
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jammer wrote:

He didn't panic and overpay for Kyle Orton or Carson Palmer last offseason when it appeared both he and Sparano were on the hot seat to get a QB.
What makes you believe he was on the hot seat?

jammer wrote:
Has the NFL seen a Lamar Gordon type trade since the infamous trade?
Probably not, because few owners put GMs in a win or lose your job situation.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:28 pm 
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After seeing Carroll get toasted by backup WRs.....I'm guessing we're going to miss V. Davis.


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